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Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion


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  #41  
Old 01-22-2019, 02:22:31 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion

I am currently in a holding pattern on this project, I have run into space constraints on mounting those caps. Waiting to hear back from Miller to see if they can identify purpose of the mystery caps, I am thinking about removing those, or maybe just relocating them if I should keep them.

Not sure what the Ducati caps came from, surplus dealer in Az had them. I thought these were oil filled caps, but they are not, and I'm not 100% sure they will work. Looked up the specs on them, these are the GP84 series, applications include AC filtering and High performance PFC (high harmonics, voltage and RMS/surge current), there is lots more info, but its greek to me https://www.ducatienergia.com/media/...-catalogue.pdf
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Old 01-24-2019, 11:24:36 PM
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Default Re: Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion

Powered this machine on today , so far so good, no mushroom cloud of magic smoke. Not happy with placement of the big caps, but for now it will do. The mystery caps are no longer a mystery, they are right there in the schematic and must stay. As for what was done to modify this to an arc lamp source, per Miller tech "The addition to this machine according to the print is VR1 and R6, this would be across the rectifier for protection from high frequency and outside voltages. It is not required but better safe than sorry to protect the machine."

For now the contactors are controlled by a toggle switch on panel, figured might as well because even with a remote the day will come when remote fob is mia, dead, crushed, etc. I will update this thread at a later date when I get welding leads, panel lights, and a remote unit.
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  #43  
Old 01-25-2019, 01:09:49 AM
Zephyr7 Zephyr7 is offline
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Default Re: Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion

Regarding those caps, caps have a few important ratings:
Microfarads: the capacitance value of the cap. You want to keep this the same for your replacement caps
Voltage: this is the voltage rating, you can replace with the same or higher voltage. Sometimes you’ll see these marked “wv” which just means “working voltage”
Temperature: higher is better. Caps are rated to last so many hours at their rates temp, but it’s not linear so going from an 85* rated cap to a 105* rated cap might gain you a 16x longer life at your actual operating temp.

“Protected” just means there is a fusible link inside the cap so that it won’t rupture in a fault. Oil caps like those metal can types you have are usually protected.

Data sheets talk about “ripple current” which is the current, in amps, of the AC component of the voltage waveform applied to the cap. Higher is better, but many applications don’t really care. Oil filled caps tend to have high ripple current ratings.

Frequency ratings vary by the type of cap. Oil filled and electrolytic caps have the lowest frequency ratings in general, ceramic caps the highest. Film caps are in between.

VR1 is probably a varistor, an MOV which is a type of resistor that conducts heavily above a certain voltage threshold. They’re commonly used in surge protectors. They’re easy to get from electronics distributors in all kinds of ratings. They also wear out eventually (they can basically absorb only so much energy in their life and then they die), so you might want to consider replacing them in your rebuild. They’re cheap parts.

I doubt you’ll have any issues with your replacement oil filled caps. As long as you used the same capacitance, and at least the same voltage or higher, you should be ok. The other ratings are pretty similar for almost all oil caps of this type, and your application probably isn’t going to be too picky anyway.

Bill
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  #44  
Old 01-25-2019, 02:05:37 AM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion

Zepher/Bill
The big Ducati caps are for the single phase conversion, the 4 -4000uf caps are part of original system, and although not seen in the last pic (because they are on the fan), they are still there.

Concerning caps, I have been back into machine and in order to be safe shorted the caps (big loop of wire with bare ends), there was no spark from one big cap, and big fat spark from other, and no spark from the 4 cap bank. Would this indicates caps are bad? The 4 - 4000uf caps are probably original and that would put them at about 40 years old. Ducati caps are from ebay, still time for a replacement.
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Old 01-25-2019, 10:49:11 AM
Zephyr7 Zephyr7 is offline
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Default Re: Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion

No spark in this case doesn’t mean anything. Large caps are sometimes shorted for storage because they have nasty habit of gradually accumulating a charge and that zapping you when you least expect it. The shorting wire is for safety, nothing more.

In a DC system, the caps will hold a residual charge and oil caps can hold a charge for a looong time due to their very low self-discharge rate. Usual practice is to put a high-value resistor (like 100k ohm) across the cap so that it will discharge in a realsonable amount of time after the equipment is shut off.

In an AC system, the voltage is always varying so the cap will only have the charge of whatever the voltage level of the sinewave was when the system shut off. If there are any transformer/inductors in parallel with the cap, those will effectively short the DC voltage from the cap resulting in a rapid discharge.

If you got a spark from one cap, I’d check that the other magnetic components are all ok, but there is probably nothing wrong.

Bill
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  #46  
Old 01-25-2019, 02:48:53 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion

Shorting caps done in post#44 was done about an hour after turning off machine, got things back together last night and ran machine for a few minutes and tested the big cap that did not spark first time, this time it sparked. Checked the 4-4000uf 100vdc cap bank again, and again no spark.

The Duc caps are resin filled, not oil filled. Mfr says they are suitable for special power factor correction applications, , shifting phase angles is pfc, my application is special, my level of redneck engineering says these should work

I have considered possibility of replacing the 4-4000uf caps with 2 -8000uf caps, doing so would allow more room for mounting the Duc caps in preferred location. But the only caps I'm seeing with that rating are more $ than I care to spend.
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Old 01-25-2019, 07:42:39 PM
Zephyr7 Zephyr7 is offline
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Default Re: Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion

Resin may be as good or better than oil depending on the resin. I think you have good quality caps. I’d NOT use fewer larger caps though since that will reduce your overall ripple current rating and I think that’s important in your application.

I’d recommend putting a high-value ceramic resistor across each cap to make them drain down in a reasonable amount of time for safety.

Some meters have cap checkers in them. You can build your own cheapie cap checked by using something like a 3v battery to charge the cap (short it first). Let the cap power an LED and measure the voltage with your meter. If the cap is good, the LED will remain on for a little while. The combination of the LEDs load (a resistor is better if you really want to calculate the cap value) and the time it takes to draw down will let you calculate the capacitance if you really want to be sure. As caps age, the capacitance value drops if they don’t just fail open or shorted.

Bill
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Old 01-28-2019, 01:47:16 AM
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Default Re: Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion

Bill- the big caps are for 60hz phase-shift for three-phase conversion, and are on the primary side, not the secondary. As such, they're intrinsically defended from high frequency and ripple.

Kris- the reason why you're getting a spark out of one, but not the other, is because the center leg's phase shift alternates charge between the two capacitors in sympathy to A and C's core magnetisim swinging back and forth... one is under charge to push while the other is relaxing. Bill's note that it's a matter of circumstance when you shut off the switch is entirely correct.

But the real concern, is that you didn't install bleeder resistors. I believe I recommended 15K 5w on the original CP-series conversion. On my SRH, I probably used a pair of them, and a 1-meg 1/2w in the middle... so that in the event that the 5w wirewounds burned open, there would STILL be a discharge path, albeit at substantially lower dissipation, it's a belt-and-suspenders philosophy I always prefer.

i'm in process of converting a Thermal Dynamics PAK1000XR plasma supply which uses TWO transformers (one lower, one higher, for THREE power levels- low, medium, and high (both), and on the cap banks, I used THREE 1-meg resistors across each cap.

Your terminals won't allow direct solder (which I prefer to do before installing capacitors in the bank... I thread wires through, then around, then solder...) so that they'd have to do much more than just melt to come disconnected.

Aside from it subjecting your contactor to a really viscous jolt when you flip the switch, allowing the capacitor to stay charged (without a bleeder) is a really dangerous thing... please don't do it... I would rather NOT drive to Nevada to visit you in a box.
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Old 01-28-2019, 10:15:03 AM
Zephyr7 Zephyr7 is offline
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Default Re: Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion

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Originally Posted by dkamp View Post
Your terminals won't allow direct solder (which I prefer to do before installing capacitors in the bank... I thread wires through, then around, then solder...) so that they'd have to do much more than just melt to come disconnected.
I like to solder the bleeder resistors to solder-on ring terminals and then put those on the cap terminals with the same hardware that holds the wires in place. I always use ring terminals on everything I land on the caps to make sure the connections are secure.

If you use a smaller (by wattage) high-value resistor, just make sure it has a high enough breakdown voltage that it won’t fail. For 120+v applications, 1 watt or bigger is best, but check the datasheets to be sure. The wire wound ceramic resistors almost always have high enough voltage ratings to be safe.

Bill
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Old 01-28-2019, 03:00:29 PM
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Default Re: Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion

Yes, many will use push-on connectors, pushing wire through, then wrapping, then soldering direct is appropriate for tab-type capacitors. For stud mount, the lugs is onto ring terminals is the ONLY satisfactory method for stud-type capacitors in any circumstance. For traction/propulsion inverters, and when assembled, the resistor lead must come THROUGH the lug, wrap around the neck, and back through the hole, then crimped, then soldered, for the following reasons:

- Heat from an extreme overload CAN melt the solder
- Vibration (from a rolling railcar chassis) can shake a wire loose

Because they're on the primary side, voltage across the bleeders in H-K is generally constrained to about 2x line voltage. In most conversions, the applied voltage is 240 single, so 500v is fine. Dissipation at 500v requires 50k, but since it's AC, and full-wave zero crossing, you're really only looking at a small fraction of duty cycle. At 240, with 15k, you're looking at under 5w... at 25% duty cycle.

Internal breakover and inductance of the wirewound is irrelevant (Xc and Xl of the coil and capacitors roll off under 100hz) so it's not like a plate resistor in an HF tube amp. All we're looking for in those bleeders, is to positively pull them down below 40v within a minute or three of power-down.
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  #51  
Old 01-28-2019, 03:39:06 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion

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Originally Posted by dkamp View Post
But the real concern, is that you didn't install bleeder resistors. I believe I recommended 15K 5w on the original CP-series conversion..................
Aside from it subjecting your contactor to a really viscous jolt when you flip the switch, allowing the capacitor to stay charged (without a bleeder) is a really dangerous thing... please don't do it... I would rather NOT drive to Nevada to visit you in a box.
Yes I did see that you recommended the resistors on the caps to bleed them down, just don't have any and not readily available here. Need to order resistors, maybe panel lights, and the remote from you know where, and with 7-30 day delivery times, I just don't have that kind of time, the road is calling.

Concerning the 4-4000uf cap bank, I have lots of 2200uf 100vdc caps, about half the size of existing caps, would a bank of 8 of those be acceptable? I could even do 2 banks of 8. Pretty sure I could mount those where the Duc caps are, then move the Duc caps down to main platform of machine. The Duc caps have threaded post mount on bottom.
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  #52  
Old 01-28-2019, 04:20:00 PM
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Default Re: Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion

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Originally Posted by dalmatiangirl61 View Post
Concerning the 4-4000uf cap bank, I have lots of 2200uf 100vdc caps, about half the size of existing caps, would a bank of 8 of those be acceptable? I could even do 2 banks of 8. Pretty sure I could mount those where the Duc caps are, then move the Duc caps down to main platform of machine. The Duc caps have threaded post mount on bottom.
Maybe on those caps. Looks like you need AC rated caps. 100vdc isn’t high enough either. If they have an AC rating, you could string them series/parallel to get where you need to be, but remember that if you string two caps in series, you double the voltage rating but you halve the capacitance. You need equalizing resistors too.

I’d get the bleeder resistors and solder lugs on order. Install them when you can since they’re a safety precaution. The unit will work fine without them, but it’s more dangerous to service.

Bill
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Old 01-28-2019, 04:33:26 PM
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Default Re: Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion

The 4-4000uf caps are 100vdc rated, and wired parallel. 8 of the 2200uf 100vdc caps would give 17600uf which is a tad higher than the 16000uf in original bank.
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Old 01-28-2019, 05:57:25 PM
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Default Re: Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalmatiangirl61 View Post
The 4-4000uf caps are 100vdc rated, and wired parallel. 8 of the 2200uf 100vdc caps would give 17600uf which is a tad higher than the 16000uf in original bank.
Then you should be ok. I was thinking you meant those big Ducati caps in your pics. I’d use 7 caps in parallel though, which gets you within within 4% of the original value, 8 caps is 10% off. Either way will probably work though. Caps are often specced with a 20% tolerance anyway.

Bill

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Old 01-28-2019, 09:50:46 PM
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Default Re: Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion

Sorry about the confusion on the caps, there are 2 sets in play here. The 4-4000uf 100vdc caps are original to the machine, in schematic (post #23) they are indicated at C9. My original confusion was because schematic looks like 1 cap, but I was looking at 4, Miller tech confirmed there should be 4 with values noted above. What those caps do, or how changing uf values affects the angry pixies is too far above my pay grade to even guess.

The 2 Ducati caps are my addition to the system to change it to single phase.

Hope to be back on this project in a few months, will get some resistors then.

Only other real "electronic" piece I see in the system is the bridge rectifier, do these go bad with age? Not that I have reason to suspect its bad, but they are cheap enough that if advisable, I will replace. Still looking for VR1.
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Old 01-29-2019, 03:20:00 AM
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Default Re: Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion

Kris- I think that array of 'original' caps, is all part of the arc-lamp supply 'variant'. The SRH in my conversion had a 0.5uf/200v capacitor on the output, and the rest were 0.1uf.

the carbon-arc lamp starts with a short circuit, but not like a welding rod striking. They probably added all that extra capacitance to make the arc rods strike with authority on first try. it's not necessary, and probably not desireable for constant-current DC stick or TIG welding... C7 (the 0.5uf/200v) reduces ripple enough to snub any inductive kick from the output reactor (Z) or mag amp (CF) windings.

The small capacitors are across the rectifier diodes to protect the diodes from HF transients that would otherwise punch holes through the diodes' PN junctions.

Bridge SR2 isn't a 'limited life' gadget- it's a silicon rectifier bridge that is (from a human perspective) not going to fail by just being 'old'... they don't age-and-fail like a Selenium rectifier. All SR2 does, is provide control current for the mag amplifier's winding CWD.
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Old 01-29-2019, 02:44:10 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion

Dave, I just don't know. According to Miller tech the only difference is the addition of VR1 and R6, and I did supply him with pic of the original cap installation and values. Looking at schematic for your machine vs mine the biggest difference I see is yours only has Z, whereas mine has Z1 and Z2, is this because mine is a newer/older model, or is this also part of the Hanovia variant?

For now I don't know what else to do but replace those caps with similar value and try to weld, if its not right I will be back

And while back in Tx may need to do some "shopping" for an SRH333 just so I can snoop around inside cabinet and see what they have for caps.
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Old 01-30-2019, 09:13:49 PM
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Default Re: Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion

I can probably save the trouble of finding one...
Here's what mine looked like prior to conversion. Only capacitors it has, are ceramics across each diode, and one smallish one across the DC output.

Second picture is with fan unbolted and swung out of the way...
...and a caffine-free Pepsi atop the magnetic amplifier...
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Old 01-30-2019, 09:22:59 PM
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Default Re: Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion

In the second picture, right hand side, up high on black panel, you'll see a small axial capacitor... that's C7... the rest are ceramic discs buried between the plates of the rectifier stack.

Really, the only reason for C7's existance, is when there's an HF arc starter present. When there's an HF starter, there's a high possibility that HF HV will find it's way backwards INTO the rectifier bridge, and they'll burn hell out of diodes if there's no medium for that HF to be 'trapped'. C7 does just that.

I'm pretty confident that Hanovia put that additional capacitance in there, because their arc lighting probably included an HF striker, rather than a mechanical striker like what was used on spotlights.

look at how the old arc stage spotlights worked- they had a couple of adjustment knobs for alignment, and one for rod depth (to compensate for consumption), and there was a slide not unlike the bolt of an automatic rifle... pull it back, and the carbon rods touch, release, and you have arc. As the lamp runs, the carbon rod is slowly consumed, the lamp operator would have to adjust the rod... feed it in a little, to compensate. Later systems would do it automatically, but to get the strike, probably used an HF HV generator to ignite it.
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Old 08-07-2019, 04:29:57 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion

I got back to this project yesterday, after 5 months of sitting one of the big Ducati caps still had a healthy charge, glad I checked, and reminded me to order some resistors. This is what I ordered, I think they should work, but need some feedback from those of you more knowledgeable https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Stock-10...72.m2749.l2649

Was not happy with previous location of the big ducati caps, so I removed the "original to machine" cap bank (4-4000uf 100vdc caps) and replaced it with a bank of 7 -2200uf 100vdc caps. You will probably have to compare pics below with pics above to see differences. Also had to relocate the resettable circuit breaker, it is now hidden in the louvers.

Brought a set of leads out this year, hope to give this thing a try soon!

Edit: I have pics of what I've done, but cannot get them to load.
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