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Antique Steel Wheel Tractors - Old Iron Lugs and Cleats

Twin City Small Tractors. "On a WHIM"


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  #261  
Old 03-05-2019, 01:52:29 AM
Duey C Duey C is offline
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Default Re: Twin City small Tractors. "On a WHIM"

GB. GOLD. Thank you!
Floating plate, all the way into into the GVI... An old buddy of mine calls his a G V I. Can't make the proper I with a T on top and bottom.
I call it a G-6.
MM used what worked good and stuck with it.
I just looked in this 21-32 parts book. TW25 rods. Oh! I saw but didn't see.

Do you recall how they dealt with THICK Babbitt "bushings" vs thinner "precision bearings" on the rods and crankshafts from 12-20 era into the GT times?
I talked to a fella with a G series and he had said no shims on the bearings.
"Part numbers disappeared." I have wondered about that and can imagine it.

Side track (almost): Been messin' with these new oil pump gears and wondering which side is UP. Truly.
I thought I had pics of the drive gear. Nope. One end of the drive gear has a trifle more "relief"? on the ends of the gear teeth. I'll need to feel it again...
Tonight I grabbed the 10A6401/TW249 idler gear (from 1918 into the 40's and 50's?), put it on the ball of my hand and figured out quickly which end is UP on this idler oil pump gear.
My hand said Oww. Poor position. Move on Du!
If you find and purchase new gears like I did, feel the ends of the gears to see which end should be against the FE24C Oil Pump Cover plate on the bottom of the pump so we wear the plate less into the future.
Turn the gear on your hand and feel which end is smoother. You'll feel it.
The FE24C oil pump cover on the bottom of the oil pump: Can it be reversed? Upside down?
That cover has clear marks where the drive gear and shaft have worn at it.
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Old 03-05-2019, 09:19:33 AM
Molinegb Molinegb is offline
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Default Re: Twin City small Tractors. "On a WHIM"

Babbitt was still used in GT's,U'S until 1940-41.
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  #263  
Old 03-06-2019, 02:42:04 AM
Duey C Duey C is offline
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Default Clutch springs for the Twin Disc, TC/MM

More gold GB. Many thanks!
Got four pallet stop springs at work today. Prob’ly the same darn springs that went into the Grey Twin 17-28, 30 years ago.
Interesting situ.
I have it in my brain that I nipped off just a bit from the springs back then but why.
Wire size is .070“ (70 thou in this brain and just like the old spring remnants I have), .710“ OD and 1.500“ OAL.
Holes/sockets in the backing plate/hub for the springs are .750“ (3/4).
These 21-32 springs were destroyed and busted up, they became out of place somehow or broke and were destroyed by the clutch itself.
30 years ago, Grey’s clutch springs were rusted/rotted off.
I’ll see if I can dig up a Lee or Western spring number soon for the interested.
1. Don’t let this happen to you. Look into the darkness young Skywalker. Sorry. See the canted spring? I happened to get down and look at the clutch assy as it sits on its stool. Make sure the springs are where they’re supposed to be before you screw the FT 7038 adjusting yoke assy on. The unsprung distance looks good to me.
2. Looks good?
3. Would’ve been nice if TC had a parts blow up/breakdown of the clutch to see if these springs are about close to an artists rendition. The '29 17-28 drawing looks the same.
Got it: Paperwork says LC072J-4. Lee site says LC072J 04 S. An 04 M is a bit stronger.
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Last edited by Duey C; 03-06-2019 at 09:08:29 PM. Reason: Clarity
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  #264  
Old 03-08-2019, 01:01:39 AM
Duey C Duey C is offline
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Default Re: Twin City small Tractors. "On a WHIM"

GB, if you have time would you check the part numbers for the 21-32 valve train?
All I have are early FE numbers. I'd like 10A numbers but I believe I'm hosed on availability for some/most parts.
If I remember, you know I have the large valves (good grief, they're 2-1/8" heads!) on these original FE7G heads.
Intake verses exhaust valves have been questioned here before but the book says:
Intake valve: FE85B
Exhaust valve: FE86B
Valve springs: FE88B
Valve guides: Supposedly all FE87 guides from the KE 283's into the G1000 (10A21786) are all the same. ??
Hah! How bout this? FE510, strainer for rocker shaft oil line. EDIT: Where'd this come from and what does it do? I gotta go lookin'.
FE62 rocker arm look more like the later 29 parts engine rockers yet I'm....

Side note: Just found this! Ever looked inside your 21-32 engine at the valve lifters and guides around them in the block?
The FE1H block has 2 valve tappet (lifter) guides so we can move that stuff out of the way and get the cam out but the earlier FE1F blocks supposedly have 8 valve tappet guides in there. I've seen this before but it didn't hit home until just now. Pics on request.
We'll have to see about the Titanic style, water infested rusted parts FE1F engine block. Just another hurdle.
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  #265  
Old 03-16-2019, 01:11:20 AM
Duey C Duey C is offline
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Default Re: "On a WHIM" on a J's search.

Funky: These folks say that MM was a small manufacturer.
JT Waukesha conversion to the new/newer MM RE (Z) engine as the Wauk's were not up to the task as a Twin City or Minneapolis Moline engine should be.
Searching for a D-33 Service Bulletin tonight (J engine conversion kit). Elusive buggers they are.
Just found this in a .pdf. https://minneapolismolinecollectors....l-information/
Cryptic as they are.
service-d-bulletins tractor
D-35 J Universal and STD (standard), Install RE engine
(the Wauk conversion kit) I'd love to get my sticky hands on that...
D-14 J Bendix Brakes, adjust and line (OBS)
D-8 J Causes for overheating in hot weather (OBS)
D-8 is also for a KT.
What is OBS?
Save a copy for your files if you don't have one....

I can not find/read/copy/download any such animal (service bulletin) as of yet but it's a nice reference point.
D-33 is the one to search for also AFAIK. Two sources say D-33. Perhaps the MM collectors assn had it biffed in 07.

I realize some members here are perhaps fully aware and might even have the rare standard J's.
This is for the folks like me that search and get almost nowhere, looking for a nugget...

Later
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Old 03-16-2019, 09:30:04 AM
Molinegb Molinegb is offline
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Default Re: Twin City small Tractors. "On a WHIM"

Waukesha motor was used as the RE motor wasn't ready. From what I researched the RE motor was a Mercedes design.
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  #267  
Old 03-17-2019, 01:34:44 AM
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Default Re: Twin City small Tractors. "On a WHIM"

GB, do elaborate if you would. This is interesting.
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Old 03-17-2019, 09:45:42 AM
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Default Re: Twin City small Tractors. "On a WHIM"

Do reading on NTX motor OEA. Had hydraulic lifters. Each lifter chamber was machined to match. Old dealer told me about German design. MM made first Jeep and Willys stole name.
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  #269  
Old 04-08-2019, 08:36:37 PM
Duey C Duey C is offline
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Default Re: Twin City small Tractors. "On a WHIM"

21-32 clutch actuation bits.

GB, I did do some looking and found it very interesting and the stepdad to my eldest granddaughter claims we have a few of these MM Jeeps right here in central MN yet. :-)
Back to it or back into the rabbit hole and deeper into madness. Let’s see where this long road goes.
Had a very nice day yester and today between rains. Didn’t really mess with the new ‘18, ignitor Fairbanks Morse 6 horse Z. Twas time to mess with the 21-32 again.
Funny how it works. 30 years in the making/waiting and I get this 21-32.
Thought that 6 horse a nice, seemingly easy diversion tho as the Earth warms. Not so much. Interesting details, rules and notions about an ignitor 6.
Eh hem.
Well now. The TY112C shifter fork sure isn’t proving true according to the 21-32 artist’s conception in the June ‘29 parts book.
Either the C series TY112‘s had been upgraded to the split/clamping style with 1/2“ bolts or the book image and part number is questionable.
Perhaps the change was into production too quick for the parts books to reflect. 1217 also has the split/clamping style while the two ‘28 17-28‘s have the TY112C setscrew type fork just like the ‘29 17-28 parts book shows. Interesting. 1929, a great year for everybody... OK, not. Did MM/MS&M/MTM see something coming?
Any of you have a bit later 21-32/FT/FTA parts book to confirm or deny this?
I’ll see a later 17-28 body with engine crankshaft counter weights soon on that end of clutch parts. I’m starting to think this is another time-crunch when things changed too fast. I should don another pair of gloves and clean the goop from the fork and get my part # off the fork.
All input is welcome.


Messed with this 21-32 yester and today for several reasons.
Gotta check the FT97 Clutch Shaft (ball) bearing and associated parts soon.
To see if a clutch brake for a 17-28 could possibly come off without removing the shifter fork (throwout) shafts. Practicing on a 21-32 for a 17-28 maneuver? Yep. Doesn’t fly.
Seeing if I could gain any advantage or open up any easy ideas by removing the cone and throwout bearing (shifter yoke) in pulling the “right hand shifter shaft for fork”.

A 1/2“ bolt will work for the jackbolt to push the clutch lever side 1“ shaft out of the fork. 3-1/2“ & 4“ bolts, washers, find/make spacers and a couple nuts. There’s a 27-44 running again in MN. I find I’ll need to dress-down the left hand shaft end to just drop the shifter fork out of the case easy-peasey style without a hammer. In their use/repair, all parts have been beat to Hexx.
I had a small ball-pein hammer out so I used that to re-shape the shaft end. Bloop.
Got the hdwe at work today and I used 3-1/2“ & 4“ bolts, a hex nut, some AN washers (sae washers would not work in here but machine bushings sure would) and a 1“ spacer.
Shoot, a 3-3/4“ piece of 1/2“ Ready Rod (“All Thread” to you guys-I’d never heard of it), a 2-1/2“ or so spacer and a nut would work great there too. Keep the left hand clutch shaft bolt tight or else...
End result: Input shaft assy is ready to come out. Not right yet D.
Got a snowstorm coming in so I wait.
These pics and babble are for the one fellow who hasn’t thought of this yet.

1 Scraping crud to slide the cone and throwout (shifter yoke) forward. Yes, I was refreshed.
2 Aha! Got it. Close fitting cone and yoke assy.
3 Gone gone gone. See Chilliwack, My Girl. That’s what my brain said to me so I played it.
4 The start of the push with the 3-1/2“ bolt and spacer. It was already LOOSE that far fairly easily but binding up. Keyway full of crud I ‘spose.
5 Final push with the 4“ bolt and AN stack of washers.
6 The jack bolts and bits. The fork is out and out of the way for the input shaft assy...
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Last edited by Duey C; 04-08-2019 at 10:04:06 PM. Reason: Clarity
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  #270  
Old 04-09-2019, 08:30:49 AM
Molinegb Molinegb is offline
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Default Re: Twin City small Tractors. "On a WHIM"

First years of 21-32's had different heads. Have huge valves and different rockers. You have first heads. The valves do not cross up. Exhaust and intake valves same Most of these heads were updated to the HC gas heads. Have a set like yours here somewhere.

Last edited by Molinegb; 04-09-2019 at 11:57:46 AM.
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Old 04-09-2019, 04:50:12 PM
Duey C Duey C is offline
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Default Re: Twin City small Tractors. "On a WHIM"

You're right GB. 2-1/16" heads on the 7" oal valves. 1/2" stems.
Cripes, I forgot about the rockers. Yep, they're different from HC heads. Thanks much. :-)

EDIT: Update on the shifter (throwout) fork if interested. Cleaned it up a bit earlier. FT494 Clutch Shifter Fork.
2nd edit: Hey, look at pic 3 on my last post. Should I worry about that keyway on top of the shaft? Or does that look about right?

Last edited by Duey C; 04-09-2019 at 07:19:29 PM.
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Old 04-09-2019, 08:11:11 PM
Molinegb Molinegb is offline
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Default Re: Twin City small Tractors. "On a WHIM"

Shift fork looks similar to later. Never checked books. Probably have couple here. Key just holds throw out true. With these older motor clutch setups there is a lot of sideways "chucking" as compared to newer. Most important to me would be forward motion to engage. Little can be done by side torque.
If you dump the distillate heads parts more readily available. Won't run any different but not " original"
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Old 04-09-2019, 09:33:52 PM
Duey C Duey C is offline
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Default Re: Twin City small Tractors. "On a WHIM"

Verry interesting GB. I 'spose it's possible both 2 and 1217 needed new forks along their ways but a pair of '29's. Both of them here. Wonder why?
Per usual, I need more parts books.
My luck, the valve springs are different too. Eh, maybe not!
Just popped a valve cover off and looked at the upgrade HC GE30A heads on 1217, modern style keepers and washers but the same size washers and springs plus internal oiling. Oil stand pipe looks like it's screwed into the head, about 4-5" tall with a cute little tiny copper line running over to the rocker shaft.
1217 has an original F block.
How did they get oil up thru the cylinder blocks and to the heads internally, inside the FE1F block with a High Compression kit? I'd love to see THAT parts list and instruction.

As Far As I Know, the early's without HC heads only gave oil to the rockers from the front-top of the engine thru the outside oil lines. One line to the timing gears and the other to the heads unless a fella upgraded and also got the newer all speed governor so the line that used to go to the heads now goes to the governor to feed it.
Please do correct/enlighten me.
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  #274  
Old 04-22-2019, 01:19:18 AM
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Default 21-32 drawbars and platforms

Doing some more investigating for the transfer of the platform base, platform top (foot plate) and fenders from 1217 to 2 in the simplest way. There’s a lot of little screws that I’ll break when I put the new fenders on, I’m not interested in doing that now so I was looking to see if the platform top, both fenders and inner skirts can come off as one assembly, leaving the platform base for later scrutiny.
NOTE: 2‘s platform mounting bolts are all wrong. Some OK but other bolts are way too short.
1217‘s platform mounting bolts seem to be the 4 correct 3/4 X 2-1/4 machine bolts to mount the platform assembly.
Drawbar is next if need be.
Far as I can tell, the platform for either the later 17-28 OR the early 21-32 was sold as an entire unit/assembly only and my info shows very little about the details on the platform assembly under the platform top/foot plate.

Some questions arise.
Platform “bases”:
1. 2‘s current platform base. Obviously a Twin City platform base, an open bottom with a modified X brace in the bottom tho. Hehe. Looks to have a wood bottom. Nope. The blocks. 2 rivets on top and 3 rivets on the bottom rear gussets of the platform base in this view..
2. Oop! Where did 1217‘s rear facing, riveted gussets come from? Riveted in at the bottom but just get in the way on the upper portion for the angle iron rear fender support and aren’t bolted to anything at the top. I need to sort out parts under/back there as there’s an added bit in front of the rear angle...
3. 2‘s open bottom platform base with 3 missing rivets on the lower side. Hint. The piece of flat was put in after the lower angle was worn plum out.
I need to show that to you.
4. Here, we can see the later 17-28 steel platform and 3 distinct rivets on the bottom side according to the artist’s rendition. 3 rivet pan style bottom on the platform?
5. 2 of the rivets in the pan bottom. This pic may show the pan style platform bottom like the 29 sales booklet shows for the 17-28 IF the 3 rivets tell that story.
For the ever learning like me, these tractors (later 27-28‘s and 21-32‘s) shared some parts. Why not? MS&M was a frugal Minnesota company and used what parts worked. And many parts worked just fine for a long, long time while wearing out a lot of tractors in the process.
End question: What da hell tractor did 2‘s open bottom platform, X brace base come from or is this one from the earlier 2 speed tractors, the 6 experimentals or is the 1st parts book amiss? Or is 2's current platform base a later issue or is 1217's very correct for both???
These are the days of our lives.
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Old 04-22-2019, 01:21:16 AM
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Default Re: Twin City small Tractors. "On a WHIM"

Image 5 from above.
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Old 04-22-2019, 10:09:50 AM
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Default Re: Twin City small Tractors. "On a WHIM"

Due, what are those black things on the wheels?
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Old 04-22-2019, 05:53:45 PM
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Default Re: Twin City small Tractors. "On a WHIM"

Oh oh. Umm err ehh... fender wrinklers?

I think the timeline is working out how it wants and I'm slow as can be.
Excuses are like ........, everybody's got one.
I have several excuses why the steel isn't on 2 yet. Having several means I must be a nice guy. Ya right, that guy's a real jerk. Hehehe!
I'm happy I can get out to 1217 without slipping in the mud and the platform has been a hold up. If I mess with those platform mount bolts, I want the wheels off.
As if the steel won't be able to pulled off once put on huh? And there are axles still stuck in the hubs. Just another excuse. Shoot, Jim even offered his shop press to borrow for pushing the shafts out but I don't want other guys' stuff sitting outside. Maw won't drive me over there anyhow. Man oh man, I really have excusitis bad I see.
And I bought an '18 Fairbanks Morse 6 horse igniter Z engine, on purpose and it's been a help to let my mind wonder away when it was cool but sunny in the yard.
It did clear my mind to get back on track and do the clutch shifting fork post and take care of other little things.
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Last edited by Duey C; 04-22-2019 at 06:54:39 PM.
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Old 04-25-2019, 09:03:42 AM
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Default Re: Twin City small Tractors. "On a WHIM"

My wrecked one has newer style shifter forks.
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Old 04-25-2019, 06:01:58 PM
Cory Engines Cory Engines is offline
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Default Re: 2‘s rad top tank and Twin City lettering colors.

thanks
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Old 04-25-2019, 08:11:53 PM
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Default Re: Twin City small Tractors. "On a WHIM"

GB, what year is your wrecked one? An early?
I have a driver for the Mr Cory trip!!! BIL and nephew are in Le Seuer right now and BIL is a willing driver so after a rebound from that, we'll be heading to Delavan with 2's engine for some needed help.
The "end game" is what I'm after. Being able to work the snot out of that engine in front of a growly, worn out transmission.

Mr C, if unclear about THAT post, I decided to go south (your direction) soon after that post. More to tell there but I sure wasn't slighting you. I need to get a couple gaskets off the block and then...
See you in a few weeks. I'll be back in touch soon with an email.
I'd like to get to Le Seuer for a day. Many people I'd like to see there.
EDIT: I'd like to sit under that Twin City flag for a spell. Just to see.

Last edited by Duey C; 04-25-2019 at 09:14:03 PM.
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Flat belts for Twin City Tractors patchen1 Antique Steel Wheel Tractors - Old Iron Lugs and Cleats 9 08-21-2011 02:23:16 PM


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