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Fuels and Alternative Fuels Materials or substances that can be used as a fuel, waste oils, vegetable oils or animal fats, which can be used alone, or blended with fossil fuels.

Fuels and Alternative Fuels

Bad Gas?


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  #61  
Old 11-04-2012, 09:31:36 PM
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Default Re: Bad Gas?

Motorcycles: I just put 10,000 miles on my Honda ST1100 this year with 10% ethanol in every tank. I compared mileage with pure gas and 10% ethanol and there was no difference, so I run ethanol. I have run E10 in it for the past 40,000 miles. I am still waiting for it to blow up from the ethanol use, but it doesn't seem ready to so far. It only has 92,000 miles on it. When I bought it, it had bad gas in it and I had to clean the carbs. From the looks of the gas, it was not ethanol (I can tell the difference), so pure gas goes bad too. Who would have thunk it? Knowing the previous owner, I would guess the first 60,000 miles was run with premium, non ethanol.

Tractors: I will admit, my lawnmowers and tractors get non ethanol gas. Right now, the 3 year old gas in my 3020 is bad. It stinks and doesn't run right. The anti-dieseling solenoid was stuck this summer from the gunk and I had to clean the carburetor to even get the tractor to run badly. Note- this is pure gasoline.

Today's gas is junk. I believe that some locations of the country is far worse than others. However, ethanol does not seem to be the root cause of the bad gas.

Off topic: Today's diesel is also junk, and I have noticed drastic differences in mileage in different parts of the country.
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  #62  
Old 11-04-2012, 09:38:48 PM
1936JDB 1936JDB is offline
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Default Re: Bad Gas?

Yes, we've been fighting something that grows in the new soy diesel. Plugs fuel filters and screens. The only cure so far has been to remove the tank and tumble it full of rocks and hot soapy water, then start over.
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  #63  
Old 11-04-2012, 09:58:05 PM
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Default Re: Bad Gas?

Would gasoline be blended for different parts of the United States? Minnesota winters can get kind of chilly sometimes, such as, 20 or 30 below zero, and our summers are rarely over 90 degrees, with July usually being the hottest month. Whereas, Texas summers over 100 degrees, and what are your lows for winter . . . 20 to 40 above?

Also, would gasoline be blended differently thatís sold in any cities?


Gary K
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  #64  
Old 11-04-2012, 10:03:36 PM
1936JDB 1936JDB is offline
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Default Re: Bad Gas?

Yes, there are lots of blends. But E10 is E10, it's the other ingredients that change. Thats why I think it's not the ethanol.
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  #65  
Old 11-04-2012, 10:13:51 PM
sprkplug sprkplug is offline
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Default Re: Bad Gas?

I think there is more than one kind of "damage' commonly referred to... The white.chalky deposits found inside the carb are caused by water. Ethanol, being hydroscopic, is commonly thought to be a contributor to this condition. However, an extended interval of non-usage would seemingly also be required.
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  #66  
Old 11-04-2012, 10:15:00 PM
Pete Deets Pete Deets is offline
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Default Re: Bad Gas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1936JDB View Post
Were they carbed bikes, or injected?
Both were carbed - Yamaha 650's.....PD
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  #67  
Old 11-05-2012, 07:34:39 PM
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Default Re: Bad Gas?

I have a brother inlaw that has a salvage yard , he has been using the gas out of the cars and trucks he gets for scrap. He hasn't bought gas for his truck in over 6 months . He said some of it smells bad .

But his truck never went to school and doesn't know any better ,so it just runs .
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  #68  
Old 11-05-2012, 09:29:03 PM
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Photo Re: Bad Gas?

While I have mentioned this truck before in other threads, I've never posted pictures of the gas I got out of it.... Till Now.

While between jobs in 2000, I helped a friend clean up after a barn fire, hauling tons of scrap to the junk yard, Mostly tin siding, but some iron, a motor home, and the remains of his 76 Chevy crew cab dually that burned up.

I pulled the motor and trani out of the crew cab for him, and kept the rest for myself as I wanted the frame and rear end. I torched off the cab and fenders but left the remains of the box on it to pile parts up in, and with the cab gone it left the dual gas tanks 1/2 to 2/3rds uncovered along with having the gas caps partially melted off and not sealing very good at all.

It sat outside in the back yard getting rained on as I syphoned gas out of it for 7 years to use in my lawn mower and once in a while in the loader tractor, , and then in 2007 I decided to pull the tanks, pile some more parts on it and roll it under a car port for further storage.

When I pulled the tanks, I syphoned out as much gas as I could, then punched a hole in the end and drained every last drop that way. What was left wasn't very pretty, and didn't smell that good, but between the pair of 35 gallon tanks, I got a good 8 1/2 or 9 gallons of gas which had collected less than a 1/4 cup of water in all those years which I let settle out in clear jars so I could see what I had.

I used ALL of that gas, (EXCEPT the bottom two inches of the jar with the water in it, which I used on the burn pile), in my loader tractor and lawn mowers, and even poured 2 gallons of it in my 2003 Ford Focus daily driver which had the check engine light on for 6 months prior to doing that. While I have no idea WHY it happened.... 10 miles down the road, the check engine light went out, and stayed out, though it did come back on again two tanks of gas later.

Lawn mowers and loader tractor ran fine on it too, as they did for the 7 years prior to that.

When that finally ran out, I had to go back to actually Buying gas for the lawn mower. Bummer! Wish I had a couple more cars to scrap out.
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  #69  
Old 11-05-2012, 09:55:33 PM
sprkplug sprkplug is offline
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Default Re: Bad Gas?

I don't doubt that one bit. The fuel we have today is a far cry from what we had even 10 years ago.
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  #70  
Old 11-06-2012, 12:14:14 AM
jgreen416 jgreen416 is offline
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Default Re: Bad Gas?

On the farm, years ago, the trucks and tractors we had seem to run on anything combustible. That batch Otto showed is pretty much the nastiest I have seen.

JG
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  #71  
Old 11-06-2012, 07:04:51 AM
sdowney717 sdowney717 is offline
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Default Re: Bad Gas?

Gas pumped from bottom of tanks in the boat.
Each tank holds 150 gallons and are made of Monel.


Pulling out the sludge I used a vacuum jar and copper tube sitting directly on tank bottom with some notches to allow it to flow. I pulled several gallons sludge out of each tank. the sludge reeked of ethanol so it was phase separated. Tanks were new in 1970, so decades of gums and varnishes coated the interior. When I put in E10, all that dissolved into the fuel. I spent weeks filtering the fuel over and over using a pump. I had to deal with about 100 gallons of old gas. It is almost all burned thru various motors, down to the last 20 gallons. It has poor octane even after mixing with fresh fuel.

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  #72  
Old 11-06-2012, 08:09:56 AM
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Default Re: Bad Gas?

What does ethanol reek like? I think the problem was 2 decades of varnish from bad gas. Not the ethanol that loosened it up.
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  #73  
Old 11-06-2012, 08:21:30 AM
sdowney717 sdowney717 is offline
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Default Re: Bad Gas?

Meaning smelled strongly of alcohol, not gasoline.
You can smell the difference.
I think there may have been water sitting in the bottom of the boats fuel tanks. With the old gas, a little water just sits there, with E10 even a tiny amount such as a teaspoon in 1 gallon will cause phase separation.
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  #74  
Old 11-06-2012, 01:00:49 PM
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Default Re: Bad Gas?

If it phase seperatred it would be a mixture a water and alcohol in the bottom, Not straight alcohol.

Ethanol will keep the water and alcohol mixed with and in suspension with the gas up to 0.6% water content (the saturation point)

Phase Separation happens at that 0.6% water content.

IF it's already at 0.59% when you buy it, (due to ground water runoff into the underground tanks which used to all settle to the bottom of the tank, but now mixes in), then it may only take a teaspoon of "Extra" water (or more depending on how many gallons are in the tank) to push it over the limit and force it to separate.

When at or Very Near that 0.6% saturation point, it can also phase separate with No Additional water added IF it experiences a sudden 20 degree drop in temperature.

In any case though, it would be dumping both the water and the alcohol to the bottom of the tank.

---------- Post added at 01:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdowney717 View Post
....with E10 even a tiny amount such as a teaspoon in 1 gallon will cause phase separation.
If a teaspoon of water in 1 gallon caused it to phase seperate, then you already had water in it and were already Near that 0.6% saturation point.
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  #75  
Old 11-06-2012, 04:56:54 PM
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Default Re: Bad Gas?

yes I think it did have water in there.
Gas also phase separates with temperature change when it gets cold. Boat ran ok then it got very cold overnight. Next time I go to start up, could not keep running. Pumps pulled nasty brown sticky sludge into filters clogged them up and got into carbs, was a real mess to clean out.

What had happened was I had just put boat back into water after sitting on land for 7 years. I added fresh E10 gas to the old gas thinking it would help it run as I knew the octane must have dropped. So we motored around ok, then slipped it. Few days later the brown goo. Dissolved the gums stuck on the inside of the tank.

Also what was coming out of tank had pure gasoline floating on top, goo on bottom which smelled like alcohol. So I was sucking fuel out, decant off the gas from top and discarding the goo into buckets.

That goo was odd stuff. It did not dissolve clean with new gasoline. I ended up replacing all the fuel lines, cleaned carbs, new filters, filtered tanks. It did after drying form a brownish shiny varnish which dissolved in water when you scrubbed it with a scrunge. Found that out when cleaning out the pails used with the vacuum setup. The vacuum pump allowed me to suck thick sludge from tank bottom, otherwise I dont know what I could have done. It took couple of months to get it clean.
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  #76  
Old 11-06-2012, 05:55:47 PM
Andrew Mackey Andrew Mackey is offline
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Exclamation Re: Bad Gas?

In breezing thru these posts, I saw one item that caught my attention: gas location. Here on the east coast and perhaps in CA, the fuel IS different than in other locations. Perhaps that is the issue with 'bad gas. There are extra 'oxygenaters' put in the fuel to try and reduce air pollution. It is probably that one item that causes so much trouble with small engines, here on the coast. I also notice that most of you that do not have problems with stale fuel, seem to be from central or mid western states. That may very well why you guys (and gals), have no or little problems.

Fuel source may also have consequences. Gas from Japan may have some different componants from locally 'grown' gas, which comes from a different source

Andrew
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  #77  
Old 11-07-2012, 12:34:30 AM
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Here in the Texas panhandle I cannot find gas without ethanol in it. If I leave it in the mower all winter I have to buy a new fuel hose in the spring. It gets swolled up like a hot dog. After a couple times I accused the guys at the local parts house of selling me sub standard hose. But I think it's the gas (don't know if it's the alcohol or the other additives). My Harley will burn it but I've been called crazy for riding on snow covered streets (by a cop) so it never sets more than a couple months at a time. (The snow riding was on a duel purpose Kawasaki & a Yamaha). My '66 Impala 396 only gets started about once a year and the gas gets old. If you prime the carb it will run on old gas but you can tell the power is down. I try to syphon it out and use it in the H Farmall. It seems to run ok on old gas. My 91 454 TBI chevy (310,000 Hard miles) seems to keep the gas better. It can set for a couple years and still start. I think the emission system on the tank helps keep out the air. It's my opinion that the alcohol fuel absorbs the moisture (causing related problems) and also if you put it in a vehicle that has not been running it(alcohol), it will take all the junk that's been stuck to the tank and take it to the filter. I've had to change plugged filters quite a bit. A friend of mine who has an auto mechanic shop had a whole lot of bussiness changing fuel pumps,filters, and tanks after they started forcing us to use the 10% ethanol. In my daughter's Saturn the fuel milage drops 10% if you use the ethanol. That makes it use the same amount of fossel fuel per mile regardless, so that makes the whole effort of the alcohol a negative impact on the environment. If you could seperate the alcohol out of the fuel you could get free drinks. (but not while driving). I'm bad about not putting the sta-bil in. I don't know if it would save the hose or not, but it might save me from having to clean the carb on the mower. I had no problem with the 15 year old Husky chain saw till this year. Had to replace the fuel hose. Maybe the 2stroke oil was saving me? I always try to store/park everything full. Dad always said that would help with condinsation. But I just started using my Lincoln "ClassicII" which had been stored over 2 years full of diesel, and the fuel cap had rusted bad on the inside and the fuel was cloudy. I changed the oil and both filters(oil&fuel) and it started fine. I know the diesel is kinda off the subject , I just wanted to comment about the condensation. Even with a full tank, the open vent allowed moisture in. I'm pretty sure that even gas that has only sat for 6 or 8 weeks makes less HP. At least on the high performence stuff. Jeff
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  #78  
Old 11-07-2012, 02:40:26 AM
Power Power is offline
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Default Re: Bad Gas?

Here is an article about gasoline that shows what is in it varies by state. Please read the first bullet. If it is too small for you, press CTRL and + until it is big enough to read.

In NJ and surrounding states, we can only get Ethanol fuel. You guys in other states apparently have a different fuel, hence no problems.

A while back, Andrew Mackey posted about son's lawnmower shop having barels of carbs wrecked by the ethanol fuel we are forced to use here.

I think that explains why some of us have huge problems, and others can keep the stuff for years..
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  #79  
Old 11-07-2012, 06:33:21 AM
sdowney717 sdowney717 is offline
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Default Re: Bad Gas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by motormanjeff View Post
In my daughter's Saturn the fuel milage drops 10% if you use the ethanol. That makes it use the same amount of fossel fuel per mile regardless, so that makes the whole effort of the alcohol a negative impact on the environment.
Yes, WHY DONT THEY SEE THAT!
Think about the reason government authorized the use of alcohol in gasoline.
Anyone saying it is a Green thing is not informed or educated about this.
The E10 mandate is a good example of how the government interferes with the marketplace and how they get it very very wrong.

---------- Post added at 05:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:28 AM ----------

One reason ethanol in gas was promoted to Americans by our government, a way to lesson our use of foreign oil. Which it does not do. On its face sounds wonderful. Reality is you have been fooled.

MTBE used to be in the fuel, now alcohol takes its place. I have read that with computer controlled engines, oxygenates like MTBE or alcohol are not needed in the fuel.
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Old 11-07-2012, 01:06:04 PM
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OTTO-Sawyer OTTO-Sawyer is offline
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Default Re: Bad Gas?

I check my milage on every tank, and I have yet to see ANY change in milage between ethanol and straight gas.

Maybe with E85, but Not with the 10% mix, or even the few times I ran E-20
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