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Fuels and Alternative Fuels Materials or substances that can be used as a fuel, waste oils, vegetable oils or animal fats, which can be used alone, or blended with fossil fuels.

Fuels and Alternative Fuels

Bio Fuel My Butt


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  #1  
Old 04-30-2008, 08:06:01 AM
DanR
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Default Bio Fuel My Butt

Bio fuel is not the answer to our soaring prices. Look at some things that we all know. Gas prices going up daily, groceries doubled in the last year, property value at an all time low, and metal prices off the scale. The fact is that the production of bio fuel is costing us in ways that we cannot imagine. The price of farm land has tripled because of more corn production. Farmers are making profits as never before. Diesel use has doubled for farm use. The cost of shell corn has doubled in the last year. Fertilizer and chemicals have doubled in the last year. And the list goes on and on. When we make bio fuel for what ever reason we are passing the cost on to every one. Is the end worth the means? The old adage, " It's not how much you make it's how much it costs you to make it." The solution is not for the faint of heart. I personally don't see any of the Presidential candidates with enough fortitude to tell Detroit to get it together, tell the oil lobbyists to go to hell and tell the Greenies to back off. The answer is in nuclear energy and oil exploration not bio fuel. Boy have we been taken to the corn field on this one.
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  #2  
Old 04-30-2008, 12:38:13 PM
Allen
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Default Re: Bio Fuel My Butt

I read someplace a while back that the economic "break even" price for ethanol fuel without subsidies was something like $4.50-$4.75/gallon...we might get there.

Then again, when they capped (by law if you don't pump for a year it has to be capped) all those little "non-viable" wells in the NY, PA, and OH fields it was because the "break even" price was an astronomical (at that time) $3.55/gal....um, was that sound I heard us shooting ourselves in the foot?
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  #3  
Old 04-30-2008, 01:25:40 PM
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FWurth FWurth is offline
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Default Re: Bio Fuel My Butt

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanR View Post
...groceries doubled in the last year, property value at an all time low, and metal prices off the scale....
Don't blame biofuel for that. Food prices have been steadily increasing for decades while corn and grain prices have stayed pretty level since the 1950's. And exactly how does biofuel affect metal and land prices?

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Originally Posted by DanR View Post
...The price of farm land has tripled because of more corn production....
I thought you just said that property values were at an all time low? It is the developers and cities who finance them that are elevating the prices of undeveloped land. Most of the farm ground sold in this area is purchased by developers, it is only farmed (by tennants) until the developer gets a city to finance a strip mall or sub-division.

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Originally Posted by DanR View Post
...Farmers are making profits as never before. Diesel use has doubled for farm use. The cost of shell corn has doubled in the last year. Fertilizer and chemicals have doubled in the last year....
I would read what you wrote again before you make the claim that farmers are making record profits. Haven't you considered that we also have to pay the elevated fuel, seed and fertilizer costs to grow a crop? These costs have increased dramatically as well and by the time they are subtracted from the end of year total, the farmer makes about the same money as he ever has.

Don't blame the farmer for you cost at the pump, he has been subsidising your grocery bill for a long time!

Frank Wurth
Proud Farmer
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Old 04-30-2008, 02:25:55 PM
Allen
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Default Re: Bio Fuel My Butt

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Originally Posted by FWurth View Post
the farmer makes about the same money as he ever has.

Don't blame the farmer for you cost at the pump, he has been subsidising your grocery bill for a long time!

Frank Wurth
Proud Farmer
Aw c'mon, you mean you're gonna let a few measly FACTS get in the way of a perfectly good RANT? You must be one of those liberal/communist/CEO/extremist/greenie/bad guys du-jour (Where is the "sarcastic" button? lol)
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Old 04-30-2008, 04:06:31 PM
DanR
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Default Re: Bio Fuel My Butt

Apparently you have not bought a sack of corn in the last year. I was not referring to developers land. I have not seen too many new subdivisions out in corn country. I'm talking about fallow land and land that has been used for other crops like wheat now being used for corn. Bought a loaf of bread lately? If you are a farmer and not making more money now I suggest you switch to corn. I for one would like to see every farmer in this country able to buy a new pick-up every year. Which side would like to be on ? The rocking chair side or the other side looking at reality?
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Old 04-30-2008, 05:32:41 PM
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Default Re: Bio Fuel My Butt

DanR,

May I suggest you increase your research in to the cost of inputs to produce crops as well as market & process them? While it may seem that the value of the raw product (corn, soybeans, wheat, barley, milk, meat, eggs, etc) from the farm is high, the inputs are increasing in a disproportionate manner. Historically, you will have highs & lows, but overall, the general margin for crops is small.

The price for the raw products will fall again, however the inputs will not necessarily fall in the same proportions. It is hard to negotiate lower rents, etc.

As an Agribusiness Banker for a national bank as well as a farm kid (1200 acre family farm here in Michigan), I'll be glad to debate apples to apples. Do not associate the final product--loaf of bread, bag of horse feed, etc. You have to factor in the middle man as well as the huge cost to ship these products.

We can debate the cost of farm ground if you wish also. That is in a category all its own. Factors influencing these prices include expanding suburbia, greed, death, etc.

Most farmers are asset rich & cash poor.

Beth
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Old 04-30-2008, 08:45:52 PM
Kevin O. Pulver Kevin O. Pulver is offline
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Default Re: Bio Fuel My Butt

Beth and FWurth make some good, valid points.
The part about the farmers subsidizing the nations grocery bill is a stretch though. My Dad and brother are truck drivers. Nobody subsidizes them if they let their truck lie fallow for a year or pays them an LDP if they don't get the rate they need to make a profit. Come to think of it, I can't think of any other professional that has a deal like that. There may be some.
One part noone can argue, the farmer works LOOONG hours, but barely breaks a sweat compared to his father and grandfather.
Kevin
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Old 04-30-2008, 09:56:20 PM
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Default Re: Bio Fuel My Butt

I always looked at biodiesel more as a recycling project than a raper of the civilized world. Most of the Biodiesel sites I am looking at are using recycled cooking oils as a source. I in fact bought my truck because I could do the french fry thing with it. Why buy the new stuff when there is so much of the used around. You cant tell me that all the McDonalds in the world arent disguarding millions of gallons of cooking oil every day. We need more recycling and clever use of products... not new.

All the discussion of corn is to make ethanol, which is a gasoline thinner and alcohol... not biodiesel.
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Old 04-30-2008, 10:46:25 PM
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Default Re: Bio Fuel My Butt

We need to sink more wells in this country and also need to stop selling oil drilled here to other countries like Japan. That would be a major step in oil independance. As far as corn for ethanol, its a joke. Its causing more harm than good in fuel systems and gas has such a short shelf life its not even funny. They may find it pollutes ground water worse than MTBE in years to come. We need more efficient vehicles. Diesel is the answer, not gas hybrids. Plus we need more alternative fuels. A far as B20 I wouldnt waste my time at $1.00 more a gallon than diesel for that bio diesel crap. Cheaper price is key. Waste veggie oil would be better. As for our elected officials to have the intestinal fortitude to do ANYTHING but line their own pockets I would be amazed. They can all go to hell as far as im concerned.
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Old 04-30-2008, 10:54:49 PM
Dan Baalman Dan Baalman is offline
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Default Re: Bio Fuel My Butt

Talked to a friend today, and he said his employer, U P S, just contracted for 2009 diesel at 5.45 a gallon. Looking forward looks pretty bleak.
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Old 05-01-2008, 01:19:57 AM
Chris Hudson Chris Hudson is offline
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Default Re: Bio Fuel My Butt

We have two newer John Deere tractors we run on the farm, a 4120 and 7120, we use bio-fuel and not only is it cheaper but it does burn cleaner. As for farmers are making more money that is a JOKE!!!!! one year ago I bought several pallets of tripple 12 fertilizer, this year my fertilizer bill was three times the amount for the same amount of fertilizer. Seed is another thing try doubling the price of seed and on top of that double the price of corn, in the end I'm still not making out any more ahead than I have in the past. In my opinion the only crop you can make money on with 300 acers is growing hay and profits on that are not too high after you figure the fuel costs and wear and tear on equipment. That's another factor, I work in the parts department at the John Deere dealer and parts have more that DOUBLED so for your next repair figure on paying a LOT more cash.......Farmers make tons of money.....what a joke
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Old 05-01-2008, 06:50:58 AM
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Default Re: Bio Fuel My Butt

What I said was " farmers are making profits as never before". With that said, my Grandfather said " you can usually trust your banker" Thanks Beth.
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Old 05-01-2008, 08:45:57 AM
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Default Re: Bio Fuel My Butt

DanR,

The proper statement would be "Farmers' GROSS receipts are higher than ever." NET PROFIT will generally remain average due to increased expenses. Depending on the marketing efforts, there will be blips in revenue which will skew the overall results in the short term.

Beth
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Old 05-02-2008, 07:54:30 AM
Mike Cannon Mike Cannon is offline
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Default Re: Bio Fuel My Butt

My neighbor farmer always says "farmers are the only business people in this country that buy at retail, sell at wholesale and pay for the shipping both ways. Most stay in it because they truly love what they are doing. I can attest to the long hours they put in and I say more power to them !!! Thats exactly why I buy everything I can directly from them.
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Old 05-02-2008, 10:07:57 AM
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Default Re: Bio Fuel My Butt

Well, intresting thread. After reading through it this morning, I had to walk away and do a little work to calm down.
We have a small famly farm that we work because we love the life and the ground that has been in our family since 1882.
Some of you have already put some really good points of view out there so I won't repeat those comments.
It's easy to see the prices we get for our crops, TV or radio and newspapers, and for the average person, that's all they see. Would I like to get the Board of Trade price for my crop? You bet! Fact is, we don't.
Input costs? NH3 about 400$ a ton last year. This year, we locked in 750$ a ton and it turned out to be a good move.
Diesel- 3.96 bulk.(that was early spring fill) Last year about a dollar less.
Seed- don't want to talk about it.
Profit- pretty much the same as it's always been.

Just my 2 cents. Even that is worth less!!
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Old 05-02-2008, 07:05:41 PM
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Default Re: Bio Fuel My Butt

What I dont understand is the population in this country is more than its ever been but farmers are told not to grow this or that, farms are going under to make way for condo villages,etc. The thing is,there used to be MORE farms and LESS people back then and we had enough product to feed all the mouths. Now we have MORE mouths and LESS farms, I would think there would be such a demand on farmers for food its not funny. Just what happened in this country??
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Old 05-03-2008, 02:22:58 AM
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Default Re: Bio Fuel My Butt

Having seen £1.26 per Litre for diesel this last week, I would love to pay $5.00 even for a small US gallon

Fuel efficiency is what needs to be addressed very quickly in the USA. The engines are already in use everywhere else in the world, the US car and snall truck makers need to start using them, and US drivers needs to get weaned off the big V8's.

Big trucks in the US are already on diesels, we haven't had a big truck with a gas engine in the UK since the 1950's. Smaller trucks carried on with the 214cu in Bedford (GM) trucks into the late 1960's, but nothing sells with a gas engine now, even the smaller vans are almost all offered with only diesel engines.

Biodiesel is not going to change the world or the fuel situation, lower consumption will.

Peter
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Old 05-03-2008, 08:22:35 AM
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Default Re: Bio Fuel My Butt

sounds like to me "you" all have a consumption ,problem over their, with that price of diesel, sounds more like u need hybrid vehicle's more then we (usa) do with are v-8's will still are getting
some what same mileage in a 1/2 ton,, virus us buying
a heavy truck with a diesel,,,just dont make sense yet
gas 3.56 a gallon & diesel 4.58 a gallon , but i have been doing some reading that (GM) is coming out with smaller diesel for the 1/2 ton truck,,we'll see how that plays out
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Old 05-03-2008, 12:46:48 PM
Kevin O. Pulver Kevin O. Pulver is offline
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Default Re: Bio Fuel My Butt

A retired Nebraska farmer and steam engine/model engine builder friend of mine had an interesting thought. He says that farmers used to be producers, but are now consumers. Think about it, they used horses they raised on the farm and fed them with hay they raised on the farm, planting seed they raised on the farm. Now they buy diesel, seed, fertilizer, oil, gasoline, natural gas and electricity for irrigation. Sure, they produce what it took 100 men to produce, but rather than being self-sufficient, they are utterly dependant.
I'm not saying this is wrong, just vastly different from days of old.
Kevin
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Old 05-03-2008, 10:00:39 PM
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Default Re: Bio Fuel My Butt

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Originally Posted by BDMelon View Post
with are v-8's will still are getting
some what same mileage in a 1/2 ton,, virus us buying
a heavy truck with a diesel,,,just dont make sense yet
gas 3.56 a gallon & diesel 4.58 a gallon , but i have been doing some reading that (GM) is coming out with smaller diesel for the 1/2 ton truck,,we'll see how that plays out
I have a friend who is kicking himself for selling his Dodge 2500 diesel 5spd and 4X4 that got 22mpg highway now that he has a 1993 F250 with a 351 gas engine that gets 9mpg if hes lucky, so diesel is a good alternative regardless of current fuel prices.
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