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Fuels and Alternative Fuels Materials or substances that can be used as a fuel, waste oils, vegetable oils or animal fats, which can be used alone, or blended with fossil fuels.

Fuels and Alternative Fuels

Using ice for air conditioning


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  #21  
Old 03-13-2012, 09:55:18 AM
Casemaker Casemaker is offline
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Default Re: Using ice for air conditioning

my dad's aunt had an ice house near Cairo Missouri, he told me they had a large pond where they harvested the ice. He said they packed it in and covered it with sawdust to insulate. It was used to keep the ice box cold year around and they would store meat in the ice house year around as well. It was a wooden building with a wood shingles. I dont know how big the ice box was in the house, but I have seem some that looked like they were slightly bigger than a pie safe.
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  #22  
Old 03-13-2012, 10:24:20 AM
oldproff oldproff is offline
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Default Re: Using ice for air conditioning

Harry and snow country famer hit the nail on the head. Underground. You do not need ice. I was in a smaii hotel near mamoth cave that cooled the whole building with air from an under ground cavern. the only cost was to run a vent fan. They always had 56 degree air available. Bill K
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  #23  
Old 03-13-2012, 04:20:20 PM
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OTTO-Sawyer OTTO-Sawyer is offline
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Default Re: Using ice for air conditioning

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Originally Posted by KEB View Post
Elementary thermodynamics. The only basic difference between cooling your house with an air conditioner and cooling it with ice is what happens to the heat that is removed from the interior of the house. With an air conditioner, the heat taken out of the cold air blowing out of the air conditioner is added to the outside air passing through the condenser coils, which is why the air coming out of the compressor/condenser unit is hotter than the surrounding air.

In the case of cooling with ice, the energy taken out of the house is absorbed in the ice, either raising its temperature or melting it.

Keep in mind the idea of conservation of energy. I can move heat around, or I can convert other forms of energy into heat (and vice versa) but I can't destroy energy. Heat energy will move from a warmer area to a cooler area all by itself. In the case of a cool basement, the basement is cool because heat is moving from the warmer interior air to the cooler ground surrounding the basement. Because the earth has so much more mass than the air in your basement, the heat moving from the warmer basement air through the walls into the earth has a negligible effect on the temperature of the surrounding earth.

Keith
Even Simpler Thermodynamics....

Heat Rises.


Heat does not go down into the basement without forced air ductwork or into the ground loop of a geothermal system without a circulating pump or through an air conditioner without a combination of pumps, compressors, and vents.

Open an upstairs or attic window, or a small roof vent to let the hot air rise out of the building and the cooler air is drawn in to replace it whether it's just the cool (slightly warm) air rising from the basement, or the cool air drawn through a cave or tunnel, or the much cooler air from drawing the air in through an ice house whether it's at ground level and well insulated, or buried underground using the earth to insulate it.

If you had a totally sealed but uninsulated house that was heated twelve hours a day from the sun beating down on it like a solar oven, and instead of venting the hot air out through a roof vent, you pumped it accross the ice to cool it and circulate it back into the house, then yes it would melt faster, and then you would also get more condenstation and dampness in the house because of it being sealed. If you vent the hot air out of the house using simple convection of heat rising, the draft from that draws in the cooler air with no fans or pumps or compressors needed.

And yes dampness does make high humidity and make you feel hotter, but they also make and sell "Misting Fans" that spray a fine mist of water into the air stream for cooling.
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  #24  
Old 03-14-2012, 11:35:49 PM
KEB KEB is offline
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Default Re: Using ice for air conditioning

"Even Simpler Thermodynamics.... Heat Rises" WRONG!!!

Heat is a form of energy and has no mass...therefore, it doesn't know up, down or sideways. It can, however, be carried from one place to another by a medium such as air, which is what you're thinking about.

Heat energy can move by one of three mechanisms. It can be conducted directly, for example if you put a hot object in contact with a cold one, heat energy will move from the hot object to the cooler one until equilibrium is reached. Heat can also be radiated from an object in the form of infrared electromagnetic radiation, or can such radiation can be absorbed by another object, which is warmed by the incident radiation.

What you're thinking of is the third mechanism, which is transporting heat by moving the mass in which it is stored. Yes, warm air rises because it "floats" on cooler, denser air, and carries heat with it, a mechanism commonly called convection. Similar mechanisms happen in liquids as well, as in a thermo-syphon cooling system on an antique engine.

In this discussion, the difference between "heat rising" and "heat being carried by rising air" is relatively subtle but important distinction.

Keith
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  #25  
Old 03-15-2012, 12:08:23 PM
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Default Re: Using ice for air conditioning

True, but whether it's warm air in a room rising to the ceiling or warm liquid in a thermosyphon, the heat still rises and the cool drops unless it is being mechanically moved with pumps or fans.

In a big enough body of water like a lake or the ocean, you're never going to reach equilibrium as the warm water whether it's heated by the sun or an underwater volcano rises to the surface and the cold water sinks to the bottom. There may be warm currents underwater from geothermal vents that warm the water a little bit around them, but even that warmth rises to the surface, it doesn't drop down into the colder water.

In a vaccum or in a solid mass like heating the end of an aluminum bar with a torch, the heat may travel in all directions, but in any free moving medium, whether it's air, water, or oil, the heat rises creating currents.
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  #26  
Old 03-15-2012, 01:28:15 PM
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Default Re: Using ice for air conditioning

For what its worth, warm air rises as it's lighter in weight than cold air. Looking at a chart we have:

Temperature = Degrees in Fahrenheit.
Volume of 1 lb. of air at atmospheric pressure of 14.7 lbs. = Cubic Feet.
Density or weight of 1 cubic foot of air at 14.7 lbs. = lbs.

Deg. F.~~~Cubic Feet~~~lbs.
0~~~~~~~11.583~~~~.086331
32~~~~~~12.387~~~~.080728
100~~~~~14.096~~~~.070942
160~~~~~15.603~~~~.064088
200~~~~~16.606~~~~.06021

From 0 deg. F., to 200 degrees F., 1 lb. of air at atmospheric pressure has expanded from 11.583 cubic feet to 16.606 cubic feet.

Another way of looking at it, the weight of 1 cubic foot of air at 14.7 lbs. of atmospheric pressure at 0 degrees weighs .086331 lbs., and at 200 degrees it weighs .06021 lbs. (Its .026121 lb. lighter.)

Volumes and Weights of air. The weight of air at any temperature is found by the formula:
W (lb. per cu. ft.) = (1.325 x barometric ht., in. of mercury) / (460 + temp. deg. F.)

Standard atmospheric pressure is 14.696 lbs., and 29.921" Hg. barometric pressure. (Use a direct ratio to convert varying atmospheric pressures to the proper barometric pressure.)


Gary K
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  #27  
Old 03-27-2012, 12:50:02 PM
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Default Re: Using ice for air conditioning

Back in the 80's Mother Earth News had an article about a house that used burried 18" pvc pipes 10' underground running 75' out from the basement of the home. They claimed it would keep the house cool in 100 degree weather, with no moving parts, using convection and vents in the roof to draw the air through the home.
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  #28  
Old 03-27-2012, 02:11:32 PM
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Default Re: Using ice for air conditioning

How about putting a AC unit from a car on a wind mill? Add a generator to a second wind mill for powing the fan. A line shaft could run down close to the house so the AC lines could be short.
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  #29  
Old 03-27-2012, 05:49:35 PM
Birken Vogt Birken Vogt is offline
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Default Re: Using ice for air conditioning

[QUOTE=pegasuspinto;445790]I'll make it short and sweet. If it was cheaper to store ice, then to freeze it, then we would still store it. You don't have to look too far in most towns to find an old ice house. There is immense labor in harvesting, moving, and storing ice. Ice is heavy and bulky. Ice stores very poorly. And when you get down to it, it takes a LOT of ice to keep even a small area cool./QUOTE]

Excellent summary and there are many other good ways to look at it phrased on this thread. There is another way to look at it, I think. Instead of hauling the ice down from the mountains, leave it up there and then when it melts, use the water and gravity up there to power a hydroelectric plant and run wires to an air conditioning unit.

Wait a minute, that is what we do today.

Free market economics settles on the best/most efficient way to do things. But it depends on entrepeneurs to do the figuring so if you have a new way, go for it.
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  #30  
Old 03-28-2012, 03:26:02 AM
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Default Re: Using ice for air conditioning

[QUOTE

Free market economics settles on the best/most efficient way to do things. But it depends on entrepeneurs to do the figuring so if you have a new way, go for it.[/QUOTE]

True in theory, however government intervention often trumps efficiency & common sense.
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  #31  
Old 03-28-2012, 11:44:44 AM
Birken Vogt Birken Vogt is offline
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Default Re: Using ice for air conditioning

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Originally Posted by busman7 View Post
[QUOTE

Free market economics settles on the best/most efficient way to do things. But it depends on entrepeneurs to do the figuring so if you have a new way, go for it.
True in theory, however government intervention often trumps efficiency & common sense.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, that's what I was trying to say without starting a fight....
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  #32  
Old 03-28-2012, 12:15:28 PM
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Default Re: Using ice for air conditioning

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Originally Posted by KEB View Post
Elementary thermodynamics. In order to cool your house, whether it's with ice or with an air conditioner, you have to remove energy in the form of heat from the house fast enough to offset heat gained from the warmer outside

(Massive snippity snip snip of an excellent post!)


How comfortable we feel is a function of both the temperature and the relative humidity. Conventional air conditioning removes moisture from the air as well as cooling the air, and we feel more comfortable with the drier air. Cooling with ice would require some sort of an air to water/ice heat exchanger in order to keep the relative humidity down, and you'd use some small portion of the cooling energy condensing moisture out of the cooled air.

Keith
These kinds of threads come up in various forums from time to time. Keith has done an excellent job of summarizing the facts involved in this discussion.

When I went to school to learn the HVAC/R trade and on into advanced classes these basics were stressed time and again. Not just during the first couple of years but right on thru the entire process.

Obviously the man has been in the business or a related field.

Control of humidity and airflow are major considerations when designing the comfort level of a conditioned space. I suspect Keith would be able to give some pointers in this context as well.

Mike
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Old 03-29-2012, 12:07:45 AM
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Default Re: Using ice for air conditioning

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Originally Posted by Tencubed View Post
These kinds of threads come up in various forums from time to time. Keith has done an excellent job of summarizing the facts involved in this discussion.

When I went to school to learn the HVAC/R trade and on into advanced classes these basics were stressed time and again. Not just during the first couple of years but right on thru the entire process.

Obviously the man has been in the business or a related field.

Control of humidity and airflow are major considerations when designing the comfort level of a conditioned space. I suspect Keith would be able to give some pointers in this context as well.

Mike
Wow, thanks for the compliment. Actually, I've never worked in HVAC. I currently design spacecraft for a living...my specialty is systems and electromagnetics.

Thermodynamics was a required course when I was in engineering school waaaay more years ago than I care to think about. One of my jobs early in my career was designing large communications systems and writing specifications for the associated facilities to house them. I had to learn about air conditioning to keep the electronics cool and the operators functioning. It's actually been one of the useful side benefits of that job.

Kind of interesting to spend the workday at the cutting edge of modern technology & science, then come home & play with hundred year old technology. I work with a bunch of scary smart people, and a surprising number of them have hobbies that involve working with their hands...hot rods, antique cars, home renovation, model airplanes, etc.

Anyway, just happy to contribute some incremental knowledge to the group in return for the info I get about my antiques.

Keith
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  #34  
Old 03-29-2012, 10:21:22 AM
Tencubed Tencubed is offline
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Default Re: Using ice for air conditioning

Sounds like you have a really interesting job Keith. It's been my experience working around folks such as you describe that an unusually high percentage of them are involved in hobbies such as you describe.

Matter of fact one such person was responsible for my getting into the RC airplane zoo. Lot's of fun and it's even more fun teaching the grandsons.

Mike
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  #35  
Old 03-18-2013, 02:18:39 PM
sdowney717 sdowney717 is offline
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Default Re: Using ice for air conditioning

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Originally Posted by KEB View Post
Wow, thanks for the compliment. Actually, I've never worked in HVAC. I currently design spacecraft for a living...my specialty is systems and electromagnetics.
Keith
How do you block cosmic rays in a space craft say for a long voyage to mars?
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/...ect-spacecraft

much of what I have read seems unrealistic in application.
http://www.universetoday.com/99242/n...se-alzheimers/

And I read Mars may be a oneway trip. Someone who will volunteer for such a thing may be mentally unstable?
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  #36  
Old 03-18-2013, 11:20:13 PM
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Default Re: Using ice for air conditioning

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Originally Posted by OTTO-Sawyer View Post
...but WHY would you have to MELT 1 1/2 tons of ice per day to use it to cool your house. I fail to see how melting the ice has anything to do with a 3 ton air conditioner making cold air....
I don't think this has come up, but even today, central A/C systems are still rated in tons. The 'ton' rating refers to the amount of ice (2000 pounds) that'd have to be melted in a 24 hour period to equal the cooling power of the A/C system. (An A/C 'ton' is also equivalent to about 12,000 BTU/h.)

So, a typical home central A/C system of, say, 3 ton capacity generates the cooling equivalent of 6000 pounds of melting ice for every 24 hours of operation. Do the math - you'll see why ice storage for A/C in a home just isn't practical in most areas...
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  #37  
Old 03-19-2013, 11:43:20 AM
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Dale A Noel Dale A Noel is offline
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Default Re: Using ice for air conditioning

On a more modern twist to this "cooling with ice" concept... there are applications today where ice is used to cool commercial buildings. The way this works is the normal facilty chillers are cranked up during off peak times to freeze water in specially designed tanks. Usually this is during the over night hours. Then during high energy cost times the chillers are shut down and the cooling water is pumped through the frozen storage tanks and distributed throughout the facility for cooling. The primary savings come the a reduce charge for electricity in running the chillers during off peak times. There can be environmental benefits as well. Lots more information here than you probably want... http://www.trane.com/Commercial/DNA/View.aspx?i=2576

Dale
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