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Fuels and Alternative Fuels Materials or substances that can be used as a fuel, waste oils, vegetable oils or animal fats, which can be used alone, or blended with fossil fuels.

Fuels and Alternative Fuels

Any use for "Old Bad Gas"


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  #21  
Old 01-18-2011, 08:06:45 PM
Bill Sherlock Bill Sherlock is offline
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Default Re: Any use for "Old Bad Gas"

Otto,

I'm guessing the gas that I referred to might have been up to a year old but probably less. It was in a plastic jerry can sitting in a heated shop. I know that you've never had a problem with ethanol gas but there's many more of us that have. With that kind of luck, maybe you should be buying lottery tickets.

Bill
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  #22  
Old 01-18-2011, 10:21:15 PM
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OTTO-Sawyer OTTO-Sawyer is offline
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Wink Re: Any use for "Old Bad Gas"

Or maybe with your bad luck with it, you should avoid the lottery tickets. I rarely ever buy them anyway, and when I do it's the odd combination having the Odometer roll over or have sequential numbers on a date with sequential numbers and/or have the gas pump stop on an even dollar amount. Several coincedences all lining up together like that will sometimes make me buy a ticket (even though I never win), just because if I don't I'll have 50 people telling me I should have.

I don't concider my experience with gas and/or ethanol to be lucky or unlucky, just everyday run of the mill events with nothing standing out, out of the ordinary.

The Ethanol debate has been argued back & forth way too often already, but I know thousands more people that haven't had any problems than the few handful that have had. The one's that had a problem, even just once, will complain about it repeatedly for many years afterwards, where the ones that never had a problem don't bother to get involved in the debate. And a lot of those that complain about it (or hundreds of other things) are mearly repeating other peoples complaints even though they've never experienced any problems first hand.

You've apparently had quite a few personal bad experiences with Ethanol, and believe it or not, I do feel for you, but you're in a very small but highly vocal minority with it. Hopefully we can leave it with that, but if you feel you need to have the last word on it, I may concider stepping back and not bothering to reply again.... but, I'll have to wait and see what that last word is
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  #23  
Old 01-19-2011, 01:18:14 PM
KidDynamo KidDynamo is offline
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Default Re: Any use for "Old Bad Gas"

If your gas burns good in your engine, you don't have "bad gas". If you have 20 year old gas, you don't have gas like I just bought yesterday so the comparison is apples to oranges- moot point.

I keep finding lots of engines and gas tanks with gasoline in various stages of stale. I have a container that will go to the hazardous waste disposal site when I am ready. Seattle is way ahead of the curve on this: free disposal of non-commercial hazzardous waste.

When I've run across a tank with gas that seems okay, I will put a little in my '65 VW and try to burn it. No question, performance often drops immediately and often the car will not idle at all. Then I'll remember: I put a half gallon of that old gas in there.

Refill with clean gas and the trouble goes away. I've got about 10 gallons of stuff that is probably pretty old but smells almost okay. You are welcome to it. I live on a hill so make sure you are headed downhill when we put it in your tank because for this one, you will be on your own and parking is scarce.

I go buy pump gas and don't worry about it. If problems develop, I just deal with it. Replace a few diaphrams and fuel lines, that sort of thing, but I don't feel the need to drive to the airport and buy avgas just yet. Takes the fun out of it! Besides, diaphrams never lasted forever even in "the good olde days" and they were probably shot already.

You can "replace" the volitiles as friends of mine had to do on specific occassions but I already posted on that and I don't want to encourage it further.

Gas is pretty cheap- even crummy modern gas. Just don't plan on storing it too long, but if you want to prove a point, come on over and we can gas up my handcrank Kohler generator with some old but good smelling gas and we'll let you crank start it while we watch. I hate to think I've been wasting all that stale gasoline!
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  #24  
Old 01-20-2011, 05:44:03 PM
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OTTO-Sawyer OTTO-Sawyer is offline
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Default Re: Any use for "Old Bad Gas"

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Originally Posted by KidDynamo View Post
If your gas burns good in your engine, you don't have "bad gas". If you have 20 year old gas, you don't have gas like I just bought yesterday so the comparison is apples to oranges- moot point.

I go buy pump gas and don't worry about it. If problems develop, I just deal with it. Replace a few diaphrams and fuel lines, that sort of thing, but I don't feel the need to drive to the airport and buy avgas just yet. Takes the fun out of it! Besides, diaphrams never lasted forever even in "the good olde days" and they were probably shot already.

Gas is pretty cheap- even crummy modern gas. Just don't plan on storing it too long, but if you want to prove a point, come on over and we can gas up my handcrank Kohler generator with some old but good smelling gas and we'll let you crank start it while we watch...
20 year old gas or 2 year old gas people still grumble about it and I still use it in one engine or another. Apples & oranges.... people have been complaining about gas going bad in a short time for at least 35 - 40 years that I've been hearing it, basically ever since unleaded came out.

Totally agree with your second point there about diaphrams and other parts not lasting forever.... reguardless of what type fuel is being used, plus the fact that the quality of those replacement parts isn't what it used to be either so the new parts will rot away quicker even if you still had access to the 'old blends' of fuel (in fresh condition).

Cheap Gas ??? Maybe in South America but not in the U.S. As for proving a point, I don't know how well your generator runs to begin with, so you're on your own there cranking that one whether it has new gas or old. And kind of like you not needing to drive to the airport to buy AVgas, I don't need to and can't afford to travel all the way to your place to bring one of my engines (or car, truck, or tractor) just to prove it runs good on 'old gas'. And as for the "old but good smelling" gas.... if it still smells like gas I don't concider it to be old. The 21 year old gas in my 51 Ford had the worst old varnish smell to it of anything I've come accross in years, far from "good smelling"... and all I did after rocking the engine back & forth a while to break it loose, was to clean the points and dribble a little (fresh) gas in the carb to prime it instead of cranking it for ten minutes waiting for the fuel pump to fill the carb. Sure it smoked a little (very little), but it ran nice & smooth, had quick throttle responce, and left a 10 foot black mark up the driveway spinning one tire (open rear end). Started up and ran it several times that summer and the next spring again with out having to prime the carb with fresh gas. Never missed, never fouled a plug.... just a nice smooth running engine.

But.... as they say in the advertisements.... "Your Milage May Vary" ! Just because it works for me, doesn't mean it will work for you.
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  #25  
Old 01-20-2011, 08:21:00 PM
KidDynamo KidDynamo is offline
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Default Re: Any use for "Old Bad Gas"

Within the same oft told tales it seems repeatedly to be implied that the gas thought to be bad is not bad ? Gosh, that is some good news!

Stating and restating the same anecdotes, even after time to reflect, seems emphatic, at the very least. Glad to have it on record.

Should this same gas, thought to be bad, be put in a car, say, my own car?

If you don't suggest putting it in my car gas tank, is is still good gas or what?

I really hate to waste it if it is still good.
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  #26  
Old 01-20-2011, 08:45:17 PM
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Default Re: Any use for "Old Bad Gas"

If it still smells somewhat like gas and looks somewhat like gas, I would put it in my car. If you guys have 5 or 10 gallons of the stuff that you are afraid to use, then bring it to me. I will take it and use it up for free. I won't even charge you for any hazardous materials.
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  #27  
Old 01-20-2011, 08:46:23 PM
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OTTO-Sawyer OTTO-Sawyer is offline
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Default Re: Any use for "Old Bad Gas"

Depends on how good your car (or other engine) is.

If the carbs out of tune and the ignition isn't up to parr, then it may not run on 2 week or 2 month old gas

Fortunitely I've never had any problems with the exception of a chainsaw that the little flimsy plastic fuel pickup tube rotted off in.

Do I blame that on 10% Ethanol like a few others do, or do I blame it on cheap plastic that probably would have disintigrated in the same 12 year timeframe with nothing but regular gas. Hard to say... but most everything else I own will run on pretty much anything I put in it, whether it sat around for 6 weeks, 6 months, or 6 years, or in a few cases 11, 14, and 21 years.

There's a lot to be said for a good tune-up.

If you want to throw out your old gas, I'm Not Stopping You from doing it. But myself, I can't afford to, and don't need to.
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  #28  
Old 01-20-2011, 10:22:27 PM
Bill Sherlock Bill Sherlock is offline
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Default Re: Any use for "Old Bad Gas"

I don't dispute the fact that a finely tuned up carb and ignition make for a better running engine when using fresh gas. Be a long time convincing me though that a finely tuned engine is going to start and run good on stale gas even if it doesn't contain ethanol.

Bill
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  #29  
Old 01-20-2011, 11:21:31 PM
KidDynamo KidDynamo is offline
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Default Re: Any use for "Old Bad Gas"

There is usually an explanation for some of these unusual characteristics, but I'm not convinced I'm listening to good sources of information on this one.

Pretty consistent, but not to be relied on.

Thanks anyway, though.
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  #30  
Old 01-21-2011, 10:41:22 AM
xplor xplor is offline
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Default Re: Any use for "Old Bad Gas"

In August 1, 1997 The EPA lowered the required detergent additive in gasoline. This caused problems for BMW, General Motors, Honda and Toyota. We were replacing injectors left and right under warranty for problems caused by bad gas. As Y2K approached survivalists wanted to store fuel but it went bad in a short time. The president of Chevron oil company recommended adding Techron to the fuel. This kept the heavy fractions from separating out and sticking the injectors or clogging the carburetor jets.
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  #31  
Old 01-21-2011, 06:02:27 PM
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Default Re: Any use for "Old Bad Gas"

Quote:
Originally Posted by KidDynamo View Post
There is usually an explanation for some of these unusual characteristics, but I'm not convinced I'm listening to good sources of information on this one.

Pretty consistent, but not to be relied on.

Thanks anyway, though.
Just been stating my own Personal Experiences with it. Who's to say your opinions are any more reliable than mine. I've documented mine, and stick with it.

Other have also shared their own experiences using old fuel and/or Ethanol in (I believe it was) 1937 John Deere tractors, Maytag engines, and other examples in several other threads. They're just not 'obsesive Compulsive' enough like I am to stick with it when reading the often repeated complaints with several people repeating a small handfull of bad experiences whether they were personally involved or just vaguely remember hearing something as an old wives tale.

I know people that complained about bad gas or gas going bad in a week or two 25+ years ago in their hit & miss engines. I never drain the gas out of any of mine, and occasionally go out to the shed and start one or two that have sat for 1-7 years and have yet to have any problems.

That's in a steel building with a dirt floor and lots of condensation too.

Were they needlessly throwing out good gas based on believing what someone else told them earlier, or did they really have problems starting their engines on older fuel. If they really did have problems, was it really because of the fuel, or was it a weak mag and weak compression ? It always seemed too easy to blame the gas than to admit their engine had other problems. I've seen some that would start by spraying carb cleaner in the intake, but still wouldn't run even on fresh fuel... is that because the fresh fuel was no good ? Not in my book !

Is there 'bad gas' out there. Yes there is. But it's not always the case even though it's often blamed.

The "Haters of Ethanol", should be glad to read this part.... I just finished reading the latest Popular Mechanics article about Ethanol and learned a few things that lead a little credance to some of the bad reputation it's gotten. It's always been said that Ethanol (Alcohol) absorbs water, that's why gas line antifreeze works, and according to the article it will keep that water and alcohol mixed with and suspended in the gasoline up to 0.6% water content (the saturation point), at which point it will seperate and the water and alcohol will both settle to the bottom of the tank. It's a term they call "Phase Seperation". If I'm doing the math right, and I'm sure I will be corrected if I'm wrong, that's .06 per gallon or 0.6 per 10 gallons, meaning you would have to have over a 1/2 gallon of water in your 10 gallons of fuel before the "Phase Seperation" occurs. If you bought your fuel at a station that gets a lot of rain water runoff leaking into their underground tanks and you're already at 0.5% water in the fuel, it doesn't take much more added to it through condensation to put it over the tipping point. The next paragraph after describing that situation states that condensation is actually 'UNLIKELY in modern emmissions sealed automotive fuel systems', and gives another senerio where the temperature of the fuel itself can cause the seperation if the fuel is already at or near the saturation point and is pumped into the tank at around 60 degree's and then the temperature drops to 20 degree's overnight, all of the water and alcohol settle to the bottom of the tank even though no extra water crept in. That's a mere 20 degree drop in temperature which could be why Mr Sherlock has so much trouble with it up there in Canada. If the underground tanks are warmer than the air temp above ground and the fuel already has a certain amount of water suspended in it then it cools 20 degree's OR MORE, then it will seperate even in a sealed container with no more moisture added from the air. But, that also means that the fuel source had a water problem which happens quite often even in the 'good old days' of regular gas. Every once in a while you read in the local papers about a station shutting down for a couple days while they pump out the tanks, and the station has to pay the repair bills on a handfull of cars that got water in them. That's happened over and over for many many years... long before ethanol, and long before unleaded gas. And it will likely continue to happen. But I also have to repeat that it is only a handfull of people that actually run into that problem when it happens... like maybe 7 or 8 reported cases in a city with a population of 30,000-35,000 once every few years. That's 29,992-34,993 people in that city that never had a problem. Those stations that had water contamination problems in the past with regular gas, probably don't have issues with it as often with the E10 or E85 because they will hold more water in suspension instead of constantly settling to the bottom, but when the saturation point is reached, they will suddenly have 600 gallons of water dumped in the bottom of a 10,000 gallon tank when it seperates.

That doesn't make it any less agrivating for those that it does happen to, but again I repeat that it has never happened to me (keep my fingures crossed) Yet.

Back to the "Old Gas" though... I still stand behind every claim I have made about my own personal experiences with it, and I'm not the only one that has shared them, I'm just apparently the most persistant one.

And like I've said before on a few occasions, I actually do 'feel' for Bill with his problems up there, and while I found some of his claims a little far fetched at the time, after reading that article, especially the part about the 20 degree temperature drop causing the Phase Seperation with no extra water added, it does help to explain his test with the ethanol in sealed fruit jars that seperated. If he bought fresh new fuel that was already at or near the saturation point, then it could have happened exactly like he stated, and I appologise to him for doubting him on that and thinking that maybe someone was messing with him stealing gas and replacing it with water. (in previous threads) The way I read that article though, it has more to do with the % of water content in the fuel that the % of ethanol in the fuel. Higher alcohol % should actually allow for a higher water % content before the Phase Seperation occurs... as long as it doesn't get too corrosive at the same time. If he or anyone else wants to read that article it's in the Feb 2011 Popular Mechanics magazine.

---------- Post added at 06:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:56 PM ----------

Need to correct one mixup there... the temp drop quote was supposed to be gas starting at 60 degrees dropping BY 20 degrees not dropping TO 20 degrees overnight.
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  #32  
Old 01-29-2011, 09:29:41 AM
J.B. Castagnos J.B. Castagnos is offline
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Default Re: Any use for "Old Bad Gas"

After yesterday I had to bring this thread back up. A customer had us pick up a 95 Mustang at his house, hasn't run since last year, wanted to get it running and sell it. Charged the battery and tested, engine had no fire, bad pickup coil in distributor. Repaired it, started and ran fine. Next morning tried to start it to back it out of the shop, the engine spun freely, no compression, you could hear the snapping sound of the valves hitting the pistons. Pressed the schrader valve on the fuel line test port and the smell was unmistakeable, old varnished gas. Parked it in the sun, sprayed WD40 into the intake as it cranked and it started and smoothed out. Rmeoved the tank and it's totally rusted.
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Old 02-01-2011, 02:09:11 AM
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Default Re: Any use for "Old Bad Gas"

As for getting rid of old gas, it works well for getting rid of old oil. Just place your old oil in a metal container and use an old rag as a wick. pour whatever amount of old gas works for you on top and toss in a match. It gets the oil buring fast, especially when water got in the oil. Just be careful lighting the gas.
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  #34  
Old 02-01-2011, 04:12:56 PM
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Default Re: Any use for "Old Bad Gas"

Gas & oil mixed works good for burning out tree stumps too. Lights quicker than straight oil and burns longer than straight gas.

I do burn off some of the old stuff that way just to get things burning quicker, but if I don't have any old gas I end up using new gas for the same purpose so it's not like I'm burning it just to get rid of it. I'm just occasionally using the old $1.37 gas instead of burning up $3.25 gas on a tree stump.

If it lights up good with or without the big Kawhoosh from the vapors, it will work in my engines where it gets sucked through a venturi and atomised. Even if it's slow to light, but still burns, I at least try it in the lawn mower, and it's never failed me yet.

If somethings been setting for many years but I can still get it fired up, I'm not going to drain the tank just to put in new gas. The only tanks I've ever drained were from cars & trucks I scrapped out, and a couple tanks I removed to fix leaks in and then put the gas back in that I drained. What I drained out tanks I scrapped, I've always used in one engine or another after seperating out the cup or two of water from the bottom.
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Old 03-07-2011, 02:02:54 AM
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Default Re: Any use for "Old Bad Gas"

Toss a box of mothballs in it and use it...............Amazing what they do to the octane, just don't overdo it like I did in My ol 67 ford years ago, nearly melted the exhaust valves off the stems.


Jim
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  #36  
Old 03-07-2011, 10:16:33 AM
timberlakeowen timberlakeowen is offline
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Default Re: Any use for "Old Bad Gas"

I found some gas sitting in a McCulloch chain saw for about 15 years. Can you use that stuf as a varnish because it has the same smell color and consistancy. i dont want to just waste the stuf.
-Owen
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Old 03-07-2011, 12:58:46 PM
Bill Sherlock Bill Sherlock is offline
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Default Re: Any use for "Old Bad Gas"

Just curious, did you take the carb apart to see what it looked like? Bet with a shot of a carb cleaner like Carb Medic it would be good to go!

Bill
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Old 03-07-2011, 10:32:09 PM
timberlakeowen timberlakeowen is offline
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Default Re: Any use for "Old Bad Gas"

i put a whole new carb kit into the saw havent started it yet most likely try it tommorow
-Owen
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:32:51 PM
joethemechanic joethemechanic is offline
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Default Re: Any use for "Old Bad Gas"

I've been turning wrenches for over 35 years, and I've never had a problem with anything that looked and smelled like gas. I always find those fuel problems are more related to water, rust, and dirt.

I've pulled plenty of equipment out of the weeds because it had to be put in service in a hurry, lots of it setting 10 years or more, and I never remember draining any gas and having to get rid of it.

I've run into a lot of diesel equipment that was supposed to be "gelled up" in the winter and almost always it's a water problem, or an "algie" problem which is dirrectly related to a water problem.

I chalk all that stuff up to old wives tales and mis-diagnosis.
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Old 03-11-2011, 11:52:16 PM
Bill Sherlock Bill Sherlock is offline
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Default Re: Any use for "Old Bad Gas"

Joe,

I think you will find the water and rust problem much more prevalent when the gas contains ethanol. In fact, I guarantee it.

Bill
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