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EU7000 4 ton A/C Video


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  #21  
Old 01-07-2018, 05:36:08 PM
billinjax billinjax is offline
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Default Re: EU7000 4 ton A/C Video

Had a chance to go outside with my clamp meter. It's the cheapest Fluke so it can't measure and hold the peak amps on the display (as far as I can tell).

3.5 ton heat pump. Lennox 14HPX-042-230-19.

Leg 1 was only 10 amps for a second then settled on 8.6 A. Leg 2 spiked at 32 amps before settling at 9 A. Do I need to combine the readings? I read I should just take the largest.

I don't know what the voltage would be when the compressor kicks on but at 80% of 230V that's still about 6,000 watts. Almost enough left over capacity to start the air handler at the same time if my other assumptions are correctly.

I'm going to get my HVAC dealer to install the Lennox potential relay and start capacitor and re-test.
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Old 01-07-2018, 10:49:02 PM
len k len k is offline
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Default Re: EU7000 4 ton A/C Video

Might start air handler first, the rotating mass can help fan motor make amps to help start compressor.

Odd that both hot leads didn't have high amps. I'ld expect an A/C that large to have a 240 V pump, so ~ equal hot lead amps unless maybe A/C is doing some sort of variable frequency start up. I'ld try retesting, meter might have a low sampling speed and missed the peak. I don't know fluke meters.

You might look at pump motor see what it's LRA (locked rotor amp) rating is. That's what it will ordinarily pull when it starts. I've read soft start kits do help lower load on gen to let them start big loads.

Friend has a ~3 or 3.5 ton A/C (88 amp LRA) that can easily start on a 7.5 kw Onan JB even on nat gas. But they are very conservatively rated, 1960's design
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  #23  
Old 01-07-2018, 10:54:05 PM
billinjax billinjax is offline
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Default Re: EU7000 4 ton A/C Video

It is odd. I should have probably re-tested.

The LRA is 112 amps per the manual but even with voltage drop, it doesn't make sense to me because the breaker is only 60A.
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  #24  
Old 01-07-2018, 11:31:16 PM
len k len k is offline
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Default Re: EU7000 4 ton A/C Video

Breakers have trip time/amp curves. 60 amp breaker flowing 65 amps will take a long time to trip, might take 5-10 ?? seconds to trip at only 112 amps. No experience with Honda, only Onan.


Interesting Onan used Airpax breakers to protect the windings. Bit detailed but interesting artical on it if your interested. https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=137737

I tested 100 ft extension cord grounds by shorting the end, plugging them into 120V outlet and turning on ~ 15 or 20 amp breaker. Took ~ 3-4 seconds to trip at maybe 250 amp, Square D. Gen breakers should trip sooner than building breakers, different delay curve.
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  #25  
Old 01-08-2018, 02:13:18 PM
len k len k is offline
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Default Re: EU7000 4 ton A/C Video

Interesting thing about breaker's trip response time is the less % overload is the slower it responds.

Had to generate a breaker trip curve at school once ( was a Frankenstein power lab with old knife switches @ 120/240). We'ld put a certain % overload on breaker and use a stop watch to time how many seconds it took to blow. Think we started @ 125% and went to ~ 400% (100 amps load bank into 25 amp breaker, @120V. Exposed bare copper busses )
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  #26  
Old 01-08-2018, 07:32:37 PM
billinjax billinjax is offline
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Default Re: EU7000 4 ton A/C Video

Thanks for the link. Interesting stuff and explains a lot.
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  #27  
Old 01-16-2018, 09:03:01 PM
billinjax billinjax is offline
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Default Re: EU7000 4 ton A/C Video

I finally had my Lennox start kit installed. This is the one with a potential relay and start capacitor. Four wires total and it mounted right next to the stock dual run capacitor. I didn't do it but it only took 5 minutes when my HVAC tech was doing my annual maintenance.

Before I installed it, I bought and installed the Sense Monitor system in my main electrical panel. It's just a pair of CTs on the main feeds and a wifi controller that talks to their back-end. After a few days it isolated/detected (in their app) my heat pump but has not found the fan blower yet.

Net result: Before, the startup of the compressor was about 6,000 watts and settled around 3,000 watts. It can be the same now but sometimes the startup is so fast my Sense Monitor doesn't pick it up. On the graph it just looks like the motor started slowly.

Assuming some guesses about my air handler, it seems I might be able to run my 3.5 ton heat pump (112 LRA) off a single EU7000. Won't know until I get my new transfer switch setup wired in.
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  #28  
Old 01-16-2018, 09:52:37 PM
AlexV AlexV is offline
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Default Re: EU7000 4 ton A/C Video

Quote:
Originally Posted by billinjax View Post
I finally had my Lennox start kit installed. This is the one with a potential relay and start capacitor. Four wires total and it mounted right next to the stock dual run capacitor. I didn't do it but it only took 5 minutes when my HVAC tech was doing my annual maintenance.

Before I installed it, I bought and installed the Sense Monitor system in my main electrical panel. It's just a pair of CTs on the main feeds and a wifi controller that talks to their back-end. After a few days it isolated/detected (in their app) my heat pump but has not found the fan blower yet.

Net result: Before, the startup of the compressor was about 6,000 watts and settled around 3,000 watts. It can be the same now but sometimes the startup is so fast my Sense Monitor doesn't pick it up. On the graph it just looks like the motor started slowly.

Assuming some guesses about my air handler, it seems I might be able to run my 3.5 ton heat pump (112 LRA) off a single EU7000. Won't know until I get my new transfer switch setup wired in.
That's great news Bill. If this does workout the EU7000 parallel kit may become a moot point. When the weather breaks up here in NJ I'm going to put the kit on both of my 3.5 ton a/c's and see what happens That parallel kit must be driving Honda crazy.
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  #29  
Old 01-16-2018, 11:35:44 PM
Vanman Vanman is offline
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Default Re: EU7000 4 ton A/C Video

Air handler motors are almost universally permanent split capacitor, constant torque motors that take little more than full load KVA at start up and during acceleration and as such are a negligible load to a generator set that can run the condensing unit.
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  #30  
Old 04-11-2018, 04:34:08 PM
billinjax billinjax is offline
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Default Re: EU7000 4 ton A/C Video

I finally got around to converting my load side transfer switch to a backfeed breaker with interlock.

Oddly, it seems like my 3.5 ton heat pump's compressor never tried to kick on. I heard a slight noise but it was not what I expect would happen if it tried to start but couldn't. I gave up after 7-8 minutes.

The air handler was running the whole time because the thermostat was calling for AC and the Honda's LCD was reading 550 watts. It never changed at all. I never heard the engine noise deviate either.

With the hard start kit, I don't see it needing more than 3000 watts to start then it settles on about 2500 watts. It's possible it's actually drawing more current and my CTs just don't record it because it's so fast.

I will try again this weekend.
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  #31  
Old 04-15-2018, 01:44:32 PM
len k len k is offline
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Default Re: EU7000 4 ton A/C Video

At work I had to select cap for an instrument motor for quickest start time. I just put different size caps on it and measured start time, trail and error. The cap was effectively for the "start" winding (was special 2 phase 90 deg instrument motor).

Could do same test but look for lowest start current and reasonable start time. Been a while but think I used a fast chart recorder. A memory scope would work too, think there are some the size of a cell phone for $99 these days. Borrow one maybe, electrician may have one.
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  #32  
Old 04-17-2018, 03:18:25 PM
scoops scoops is offline
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Default Re: EU7000 4 ton A/C Video

my 3.5 ton ac with hard start still required about 12,000 starting watts, but it did reduce it down from about 20,000
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  #33  
Old 04-17-2018, 06:03:35 PM
Joe Romas Joe Romas is offline
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Default Re: EU7000 4 ton A/C Video

On various RV forums people have had very good results using Micro Air's Easy start,
My Honda eu2000i with the ECHO ON easily starts the 7,150 AC in my trailer.
With the easy start a Honda EU2000i will start and run up to a 15k AC, that's saying something. It comes in a boxed unint ready to install and a lesser priced unit you wire yourself. I have the DIY in my trailer and the boxed unit on my home's 3 ton unit.
My house lights would dim and the furnace blower would struggle when they both came on at the same time. No more. First the compressor is delayed 5 seconds while the AC fan only comes that gets the Honda's rpm's up a little. In those 5 seconds the start cap is slowly charged and then the compressor is slowly ramped up. Once started the Easy start is out of the picture.
Prior to the easy start even with the OEM soft start cap my Honda struggled with ECHO off.
https://www.microair.net/products/ea...nt=30176048267

It was originally designed for the marine market but has gained a following in the camping trailer crowd.

Joe
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  #34  
Old 04-18-2018, 05:18:54 PM
billinjax billinjax is offline
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Default Re: EU7000 4 ton A/C Video

All very helpful. I simply didn't understand what would happen if my generator wasn't powerful enough to start the compressor.

I figured I would see a huge spike in kVA on the Honda's meter or hear it try to start but then crap out. I think what happened was more subtle.

Thanks on the microair tip. It reads as if it will be more effective than my Lennox OE hard start kit. I need to look into it more.
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  #35  
Old 04-24-2018, 12:57:37 PM
billinjax billinjax is offline
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Default Re: EU7000 4 ton A/C Video

I have a gap in knowledge on a few levels here and hoping someone with more experience can help.

Does anyone know if the hard start kit could make the surge happen so fast that an inexpensive clamp on meter won't record the true peak?

I was using a Fluke meter but it did not have a maximum/peak function so I bought a $25 meter that did. It's showing about 12.5 amps when the compressor starts. At the same time, my CTs are also showing about a 11 amp surge. (It measures in watts so I am dividing by 240 although I think the voltage might drop during the startup.)

I am also wondering if my kit is technically a soft start kit. It has a capacitor and potential relay. I imagine that could explain why I am not seeing the 3X surge I was seeing before with my Fluke meter. I need to look that up.

I am having a hard time accepting the surge is only ~13 A because my EU7000 should have started it.
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  #36  
Old 04-26-2018, 07:21:03 AM
Joe Romas Joe Romas is offline
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Default Re: EU7000 4 ton A/C Video

Yes something is askew, IF the surge is indeed only 13 A my Eu2000i would start it and your 7000 wouldn't even notice it.

I went down the "hard start" path with my travel trailer's 7,150 btu and Honda 2000i. The brand and size recommended by many was worse then none at all. I eventually tracked down the original factory optional one and it did help.

the Micro Air Easy Start is fantastic.

Joe
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  #37  
Old 04-26-2018, 12:17:37 PM
billinjax billinjax is offline
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Default Re: EU7000 4 ton A/C Video

Although I used the original factory hard start kit, it did not help enough. I didn't realize this could be hit or miss based on a number of factors.

It looks like the hard start kit is starting the compressor so fast my cheap clamp meter isn't sampling the current often/fast enough. Same for my consumer-grade CT that monitors the power usage for my whole panel. The sampling rate is too low.

Apparently the hard start kit might even raise the current draw despite reducing the amount of time the inrush lasts.

I ordered the Micro Air and will install it when it arrives. This should be the right solution for me.
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  #38  
Old 04-26-2018, 10:31:26 PM
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Default Re: EU7000 4 ton A/C Video

let us know how it goes.
i believe you are correct in that your meter is not capturing the true starting amps.
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  #39  
Old 04-27-2018, 02:31:22 PM
billinjax billinjax is offline
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Default Re: EU7000 4 ton A/C Video

Borrowed a Fluke 376. The inrush is 110A. I didn't understand the hard start kit when I bought it. Did not realize the draw would not reduce and might even increase.

I have the Microair unit now. Might wait until Monday to install in case something goes wrong and I need a HVAC repair person.

I am under 12A running the condenser unit so that isn't all that bad.
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Old 04-27-2018, 04:21:18 PM
Joe Romas Joe Romas is offline
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Default Re: EU7000 4 ton A/C Video

Be sure to operate your AC for 5 ON/OFF cycles on AC so it can "learn" your compressor before trying your 7000i.

If you still have use of the Fluke 376 let us know what the inrush is with the Micro Air.

Joe
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