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Help! Honda EW171


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  #1  
Old 05-23-2015, 04:38:57 PM
Sir Thomas Sir Thomas is offline
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Default Help! Honda EW171

I tried posting this in the Honda EW171 thread but nobody responds.
I have the newest Shop Manual for the EW171. I have been going through the diagnostic for a Generator not putting out any juice. I tried flashing it using the drill method and still no power. I checked everything in the control panel and they appear to spec. The Lamp Coil is fine. The brushes are new and am getting a continuity reading on both. I'm am getting proper reading off the slip ring but I am not getting any AC or DC readings off the generator. I have completely disassembled the generator and found rust on the bottom of the stator. The rotor appears to have a bit of scoring on it. I'm venturing to say that some rust clumps had gotten in there. I originally was just going the pull the rear housing and the stator not the rotor but the stator, stator shield, rotor and rear housing. The housing is still attached to the rotor. I can't seem to get it free. I may just put it all back together and finish testing.
The BIG question (two part) is in step 9 in the book it states to attach a 12 volt battery to the brushes and start the motor. Question part 1 is do I pull the wires to the brushes before I connect the battery or leave them on.
Question part 2 do I leave the battery on and motor running as I test each of the terminals or is attaching the battery basically flashing the coil then run the test AFTER the coil has been flashed. Another words disconnect the battery before I test the lerminals and the exciter etc.
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  #2  
Old 05-24-2015, 01:26:33 PM
Fred M. Fred M. is offline
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Default Re: Help!

Sir Thomas-

Since no one else has spoken up, I'll make a stab. I do not have access to either the generator or the shop manual, so it is a guess based on testing of other generators.

I would disconnect the wires from the brushes to avoid damaging whatever connects to them. It might be a good idea to tape the wire terminals to keep them from shorting.

Observe correct polarity when connecting 12 Volts to the brushes. Make whatever measurements are called for. Yes it will flash the field, but I think the purpose of this test is to bypass the DPE or AVR to find out if the generator can generate.

Fred
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Old 05-24-2015, 02:58:36 PM
Sir Thomas Sir Thomas is offline
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Default Re: Help! Honda EW171

OK, here's the page from the Shop Manual
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  #4  
Old 05-25-2015, 09:39:00 AM
Sir Thomas Sir Thomas is offline
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Default Re: Help! Honda EW171

Pulled the whole thing apart and slowly putting it back together. Someone before me had butchered the thing. Parts were missing and etc. Two question. Is the first diagram of the oil sensor? The one on mine is different (first picture). Also there are some blackened areas on both ends of the reactor. Is this something to be concerned about?
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  #5  
Old 06-01-2015, 06:20:34 PM
Sir Thomas Sir Thomas is offline
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Default Re: Help! Honda EW171

I think the Generator and Control Panel on this EW171 is toast. The motor is running fine except I can't get it to idle down I think because the Pilot screw broke off and I'm getting leakage.
Can't flash the generator even through the brushes. I went back into the Control Panel and I see some wire with melted insulation. I'll tinker with it a while until I get some more work but I think John will be in the market for a new or rebuilt.
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Old 06-01-2015, 09:30:40 PM
Sir Thomas Sir Thomas is offline
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Default Re: Help! Honda EW171

Like I said. I think this Board is toast but I'm using this as a learning tool. Using an Analogue Multimeter set on X10 ohms
Multi-value Resistor
Red to Blue (Spec 160) reading 5 ohms
Red to white/red (Spec 167) reading 10 ohms
Red to red/white (Spec 173) reading 150 ohms
Blue to white/red (Spec 7) reading 50 ohms
Blue to red/white (Spec 13) reading 150 ohms
Red/white to white/red (Spec 6) reading 150 ohms
Semi-fixed Resistor
(Specs 0-1 ohms) reading right at 1 ohms

Seems like the Multi-value Resistor is all backward unless I'm doing it wrong.
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Old 06-02-2015, 12:12:55 AM
neverminded neverminded is offline
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Default Re: Help! Honda EW171

Hello,

It looks like I am in basically the same boat as you, Sir Thomas. I just picked up a Honda EW171 welding generator. I got it knowing that the engine was good, but that it stopped putting out AC power and welding current.

I have done, and checked the following:
Cleaned brushes and slip rings
AC voltage: 16-18v (Should be ca. 120)
DC Welding voltage at plugs: 20-22v (Should be 69v?)
Brush voltage: 10-11v (Should be 16+-2v?)
Slip ring resistance: 2.5 ohms (Should be 2-4 ohms)
Brush resistance: 0.2 ohms each
Resistance with brushes mounted to slip rings: 3.0-3.1 ohms (should be 2-4 ohms),

I don't know where to begin. The main issue that I have found, is that there is very little information available about this welding generator available on the internet, compared to other similar items that I have worked on.

I have the schematic, but it lacks any values of the components, of the colors of the wires.

Does anyone have any additional information about the unit, including the rest of the diagnostic chart?

I found parts of a manual from preview pages on the ebay.com and amazon.com websites. I will include the pages below. Would anyone have anything else?

I will try tomorrow attaching a 12v battery to the brush terminals as it suggests in the diagnostic tree. Does anyone have any other advice?

Thanks, and all the best!!!
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  #8  
Old 06-02-2015, 01:57:29 AM
Sir Thomas Sir Thomas is offline
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Default Re: Help! Honda EW171

If you are serious about rebuilding this right then order the most up to day complete Shop Manual. They are brand new books with up to date supplements. It gives you step by step diagnostic for the motor and generator. It's a little over $39 but with free shipping.
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Old 06-02-2015, 02:03:02 AM
Thaumaturge Thaumaturge is offline
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Default Re: Help! Honda EW171

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Thomas View Post
I think the Generator and Control Panel on this EW171 is toast. The motor is running fine except I can't get it to idle down I think because the Pilot screw broke off and I'm getting leakage.
Can't flash the generator even through the brushes. I went back into the Control Panel and I see some wire with melted insulation. I'll tinker with it a while until I get some more work but I think John will be in the market for a new or rebuilt.
Unless I'm mistaken, engine RPM is controlled by mechanical govenor. Should be a linkage from internal govenor to carb linkage.

From reading here and looking at the schematics, you should try inputing 12 volts onto exciter winding. This should result in AC on Sub winding for 120 output and center refferenced six phase AC output on welder windings. There should be a much smaller (~9-10VAC) output on aux winding.

Basically the aux winding gets rectified to supply control voltage for the rest. The six phases get rectified to supply a DC welding output. The sub winding runs direct to the AC outputs by way of circuit breaker. The rectified control voltage from the aux winding will get fed back into the exciter winding to control the overall field.

So... supplying external DC to exciter winding should result in AC outputs from all the other windings.
Hope this helps.
Doc
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Old 06-02-2015, 07:47:58 AM
Sir Thomas Sir Thomas is offline
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Default Re: Help! Honda EW171

Doc,
The mechanical governor does control the RPM and the Auto Throttle and solenoid also pushes against the governor arm according to the load. The Pilot Screw head snapped off, don't know why, and since the spring is not putting tension on the Pilot Screw air is being sucked in making it real lean.
Seems like everything on this thing controls everything else. The solenoid is feed by 6 volt impulse from the control panel. If there is no juice then there is nothing to operate the solenoid.
The Multi-value Resistor is not given me the right kind of reading. I notice while checking the diodes and resistors that some of the coating on the wires in the control panel is melted so there is no telling what damage has been done else where. All the Diodes checkout out ok. The Lamp Coil is giving me the required readings.
Something must have gone through and shorted out the system. You have to remember, when I got this thing, it was partially disassembled and parts missing.
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Old 06-02-2015, 09:53:03 PM
neverminded neverminded is offline
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Default Re: Help! Honda EW171

Hello Sir Thomas,

I looked at both the multi-valve resistor and the semi-fixed resistor. I looked at the wires about 5 times, and I'm wondering if there might be typographical errors in the manual.

I'm rather confused, because some of the readings match the book, and some match your readings.

My findings are below...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Thomas View Post
Multi-value Resistor
Red to Blue (Spec 160) reading 5 ohms - I am reading 6 ohms
Red to white/red (Spec 167) reading 10 ohms - I am reading 12 ohms
Red to red/white (Spec 173) reading 150 ohms - I am reading 172 ohms
Blue to white/red (Spec 7) reading 50 ohms - I am reading 6 ohms
Blue to red/white (Spec 13) reading 150 ohms - I am reading 167 ohms
Red/white to white/red (Spec 6) reading 150 ohms - I am reading 6 ohms.
Semi-fixed Resistor
(Specs 0-1 ohms) reading right at 1 ohms - I am reading 0.5 ohms

Seems like the Multi-value Resistor is all backward unless I'm doing it wrong.
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Old 06-03-2015, 10:18:22 AM
Joe Romas Joe Romas is offline
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Default Re: Help! Honda EW171

neverminded.

Robert from HONDA explained earlier that there were three versions of this unit.

That might explain some of the discrepancies.

Joe
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Old 06-03-2015, 02:31:32 PM
neverminded neverminded is offline
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Default Re: Help! Honda EW171

Joe,

I looked up every version of the EW171. They all use the same resistor, part number 37505-ZB4-811.

I only see three possibilities: One of us has a bad resistor, both of us have bad resistors, or there is a typo in the manual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Romas View Post
neverminded.

Robert from HONDA explained earlier that there were three versions of this unit.

That might explain some of the discrepancies.

Joe
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Old 06-04-2015, 05:10:16 PM
Sir Thomas Sir Thomas is offline
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Default Re: Help! Honda EW171

Three versions? How so. The Shop Manual has the EW171 and EW140. What exactly does the Resistor do? Does it effect the flashing of the generator at the generator?
All the Diodes and the Lamp Coil checks out fine. It's just the Multi-Value Resistor. The semi-fixed Resistor is a little towards the 0.
I haven't been able to get the RPM right. Figured the busted Pilot Screw if the guilty party. The new on came in today but I'm in the middle of a breakdown and rebuild of a John Deere 212 Lawn Tractor. Maybe later I can try the diagnostic testing on the generator unless the resistor is going to affect that. It's hard to tell what affects what on this thing.
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Old 06-04-2015, 10:46:42 PM
neverminded neverminded is offline
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Default Re: Help! Honda EW171

Sir Thomas,

As far as I can tell, there is only 1 version of the resistor. If Radio Shack were still around, I would be tempted in trying to build my own resistor, instead of paying roughly $150 from the local Honda dealer.

Looking further into the schematics, it seems it is used for the automatic idle control anyway, not the generating portion of the unit. Perhaps it might be why both of our generators won't idle?

There are 3 different styles of EW171, but from what I can tell, very little changed in both the schematics and parts listings.

I am rather confused in 2 different areas.

Sir Thomas, could you tell me what the voltage should be from the lamp coil?

Could you also tell me which brush is supposed to be positive and which one is supposed to be negative? Is the + brush the one closest to the control panel, or the one farthest away?
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Old 06-06-2015, 02:05:28 PM
Sir Thomas Sir Thomas is offline
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Default Re: Help! Honda EW171

Black and White (on the right) is the negative and the red and white is the Positive. The Lamp Coil is 1.3 +/- 0.1 ohms. You can order the book on ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/251259678254...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I'm legally blind and can't drive and am dependent on other people for transportation. My wife is having health issues right now. Most of the guys that would take me are working their church bus routes as they do every Saturday so I'm at a standstill on the John Deere so I got back to tinkering with the Honda. I got a new jet screw and put it in. It's still running at a high RPM even though I adjusted the throttle stop and the governor. The solenoid itself is working but what ever it is wired to may not be. Is it the Auto Throttle Diode? It check out fine.
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