Generators and Electric Motors
[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Groups] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Books] - [Sponsors] -

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® Shop Equipment Tools and Techniques > Welding Shop
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Welding Shop Welder generators, equipment, weld practice, techniques, troubles and solutions. See our TERMS of SERVICE prior to reading!

Welding Shop

Lincoln welder, engine driven, no output?


this thread has 14 replies and has been viewed 16895 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-14-2011, 08:09:03 PM
Arkie Arkie is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Oklahoma USA
Posts: 1,165
Thanks: 12
Thanked 288 Times in 262 Posts
Default Lincoln welder, engine driven, no output?

Guy called me and he has a Lincoln Welder, SA-200-F163, Code 6934 with no welding output!

He said it was working when he parked it few months back!
I told him to look at procedure for exciting the welder!

The on-line manual says to lift the right hand brush and apply positive DC voltage (6-135vDC) to the right hand brush holder and then apply the neg lead to the left hand brush holder! (he is using a 12v auto battery) It says to reconnect the brush and try welding!

Does the welder need to be running when applying the excitation voltage?

And does anyone have a link to a electrical schematic or SERVICE manual for this old dog!
I work on small AC gen's but not familiar with engine driven DC communtator type welders!

---------- Post added at 07:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:41 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkie View Post
Guy called me and he has a Lincoln Welder, SA-200-F163, Code 6934 with no welding output!

He said it was working when he parked it few months back!
I told him to look at procedure for exciting the welder!

The on-line manual says to lift the right hand brush and apply positive DC voltage (6-135vDC) to the right hand brush holder and then apply the neg lead to the left hand brush holder! (he is using a 12v auto battery) It says to reconnect the brush and try welding!

Does the welder need to be running when applying the excitation voltage?

And does anyone have a link to a electrical schematic or SERVICE manual for this old dog!
I work on small AC gen's but not familiar with engine driven DC communtator type welders!
If anyone knows what the voltages should be at the field brushes when the engine is running would also be helpful maybe?

I have all kinds of electrical testers, but the unit is not in front of me at this time!

Thanks and Later!
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 03-15-2011, 11:05:51 AM
Combustor Combustor is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: North of West Australia
Posts: 717
Thanks: 4
Thanked 347 Times in 268 Posts
Default Re: Lincoln welder, engine driven, no output?

Hello Arkie,
Have had several Lincoln commutator machines lose output after standing for a long spell, but each time it was los of continuity in the field circuit. Specifically the current adjustment rheostat, where the moving arm connects to its terminal, there is a spring loaded brass washer on the shaft and it grows a fine oxide coat, going open circuit. Still looks almost clean, but a good wirebrush etc has it going again in no time. An easy one to check,but not obvious. Hope it's that simple. Regards, Combustor.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-18-2011, 10:28:26 PM
Dempster Dempster is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Texas USA
Posts: 1,239
Thanks: 97
Thanked 418 Times in 366 Posts
Default Re: Lincoln welder, engine driven, no output?

Attaching the trouble shooting page from Lincoln IM 179 manual for you and link to that manual to download. Check connections and brushes too. If your low idle is set too slow it won't excite enough to make idler change and idle up to weld so try setting the idle up some first.

http://www.billswelderrepair.com/Engine-Drives.html

http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/board_show.pl?bid=44

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/Asset...OLN3/IM179.pdf
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	SA200 Trouble Shooting page 9 IM179G.jpg
Views:	223
Size:	150.8 KB
ID:	102887  
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-19-2011, 06:12:51 PM
Arkie Arkie is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Oklahoma USA
Posts: 1,165
Thanks: 12
Thanked 288 Times in 262 Posts
Default Re: Lincoln welder, engine driven, no output?

Dempster:
Thanks for the info! I saved the info!
I posted 2 identical posts about this unit, one at the welding gens and one at the regular electric motors, etc, and the moderator moved one to here, so two identical posts threads are circulating here!
I hope the moderator can merge the two into one!

I printed manuals etc for the welder guy that is having the problems, gave him instructions for testing and he called later and said when he got into the unit a rat had chewed the exciter leads into at the brush end of the exciter, he spliced them back (3 or 4 wires) and cannot get the unit to excite! I sent him Ohms readings of the exciter windings, like 130-170 ohms and he said they check out ok and he gets a low resistance brush to brush through the Armature but still no go. He tried exciting the unit with 12v bat with a brush lifted and then with the brush in place and still no go! (says he gets a light spark from the wire when he tries to excite. (No 115VDC at the neg and pos at the brushes and therefore none at the Aux receptacle! I told him he is going to have to concentrate all efforts on getting the 115DC volts at the Brushes with the unit running at 1550 rpms before the welder will produce a arc! I told him to double check and make sure that he got the PHASING of the spliced exciter wires proper. He said it was hard to ID the wire colors due to aging! Is their enough room, etc, on the brush end for him to get the phasing of the exciter wires reversed?

Something I don't readily understand is when I'm looking at a picture of the exciter coils (in the bills welding data) in the troubleshooting the exciter field coils section I seen TWO leads from each coil PLUS what looks like TWO cross connected wires!
Are these TWO sets of coils wound together or what and are ALL these wires stranded or what and how can we determine the phasing?????

I kinda assume that one set of the two coils is the PAIR in parallel with the armature at 130-170 ohms total (or each) and the other set is the very low resistance series output coils to feed the current adjust rheostat???
I suspect he may have these spliced back incorrect and the phasing of the exciter coils are wrong, MAYBE.
I've not seen the welder yet as he is trying to get it going before he has to drag it 20 miles to me.

A instruction sheet on how to replace and phase these exciter coils might be helpful, but not sure???? (phasing would most likely be straight forward for new coils) He indicated the big Norway rat (which is now in RAT HEAVEN) had chewed these wire off and he could not be sure about their colors when he had to add new wire and make splices to about 4 of these wires.

Thanks and Later!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-19-2011, 08:37:06 PM
Dempster Dempster is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Texas USA
Posts: 1,239
Thanks: 97
Thanked 418 Times in 366 Posts
Default Re: Lincoln welder, engine driven, no output?

Arkie, Yes later I saw others had posted good info for you too on the other threads. He may need to just call Bill's and let Bill or Kaye talk him through it to know if he has the leads reversed. Sometimes it is very hard to tell if have them right after rats eat on one like that. They can give him more ohm readings to check it out more with too. Just never know when one gets that kind of damage it may be fine and rebuilt or short out a coil and now need exciter coils or shorted a armature bar or winding. So it still wouldn't strike a arc idled up more either ? Another good one for the older SA200 machines is Stumpfs.

http://www.stumpfweldingsupplies.com/
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-22-2011, 07:48:25 AM
Arkie Arkie is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Oklahoma USA
Posts: 1,165
Thanks: 12
Thanked 288 Times in 262 Posts
Default Re: Lincoln welder, engine driven, no output?

Exciter coils tested ok by ohms and phasing correct per the owner!

I told him to remove the Armature for better visual and to take it too motor shop for growler test!
He call back and said some of the insulator strips on the opposite end from communtator were missing and some were hanging out!

Sounds like Armature is sick and weak!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-22-2011, 12:19:51 PM
Dempster Dempster is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Texas USA
Posts: 1,239
Thanks: 97
Thanked 418 Times in 366 Posts
Default Re: Lincoln welder, engine driven, no output?

Hopefully he finds a good electric motor repair shop that can fix it and do it right. They need to be able to balance the armature as well. He needs to check and make sure the armature bearing bore is okay and that bearing is a press fit doesn't just slip in or the holder will need to be built up and machined back to fit the new bearing. Those are some problems can run into when there is armature damage and while it's out good to get it done right the first time and be done with it. Many don't balance the armature or get the bearing holders fixed and then have vibration in the machine and try a fix of adding weights to balance the flywheel by welding on weights and that won't cure the real problems just adding more problems and can ruin a good engine too.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-22-2011, 01:01:59 PM
Arkie Arkie is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Oklahoma USA
Posts: 1,165
Thanks: 12
Thanked 288 Times in 262 Posts
Default Re: Lincoln welder, engine driven, no output?

Thanks for the info!

When he called me he said he called a automotive starter and generator shop to check the armature and he was going to take it too them!

I told him exactly what you said and gave him the name of the real good motor repair shop in this area, that can do it correctly! I told him that WE already know it's going bad and needs to be repaired correctly and a jake leg automotive shop is not a place to go!
I also told him to call weldmart and get some prices and info from them also! I seen their armature repair info online but no prices!
I'll tell him about the bearing bore! He want s to fix all correctly right for use, etc!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-22-2011, 02:10:55 PM
Dempster Dempster is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Texas USA
Posts: 1,239
Thanks: 97
Thanked 418 Times in 366 Posts
Default Re: Lincoln welder, engine driven, no output?

That's good Arkie he needs to get it done right now to be happy with the results later is the way I look at it. Would sure ask if the electric motor shop has capabilities to check and balance the armature if not keep looking for another shop. Where are you at and I can recommend some shops closer or maybe not or just PM me with location.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-22-2011, 08:33:34 PM
Arkie Arkie is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Oklahoma USA
Posts: 1,165
Thanks: 12
Thanked 288 Times in 262 Posts
Default Re: Lincoln welder, engine driven, no output?

We are in NE Oklahoma! We sometimes use Evan electric motor service out of Tulsa, Ok or Springdale Ark!

I told him to call Weldmart (no prices on-line) for prices and also evans! Evans can also re-wind most anything! I told him they could also test all if needed! They can re-wind and test all of the welder stuff! They were called to New Orleans to repair the flooded pump motors!

I told him about the bearing bore, etc!

If you know any other recommendations, send them! PM if you want!
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-22-2011, 10:25:09 PM
Dempster Dempster is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Texas USA
Posts: 1,239
Thanks: 97
Thanked 418 Times in 366 Posts
Default Re: Lincoln welder, engine driven, no output?

If you are in Oklahoma look on the website for Bill's they have prices posted online now and changed some things on their website lately too. Call them and ask Bill or Kaye and they will probably tell you who does their armatures or a good place to send it to. There is also a Mike's welder repair in Enid does good work too and can tell you who does his armatures. Best to get it to a shop that can balance it and dip it and do the vaccum bake on it to seal it up to last. We have several good electric shops around here because they do the large armatures on electric turbine irrigation pumps. I work on some welders at times too and do the magnetos and carburetors for them too.

http://www.mikeswelderrepair.com/

http://www.billswelderrepair.com/Engine-Drives.html

Some of parts from Weldmart are okay and some I don't like their idler kits. If upgrading the idler to electronic best to go with OEM Lincoln parts or have also used Weldtron. Weldtron makes a nice remote too. Hybriweld or Fowler in LA has a good dry air cleaner kit but you are on your own with their idler kits too lol. They both have some SA200 stuff online.

http://www.weldtron.com/

http://www.hybriweld.com/
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-23-2011, 08:03:07 AM
Arkie Arkie is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Oklahoma USA
Posts: 1,165
Thanks: 12
Thanked 288 Times in 262 Posts
Default Re: Lincoln welder, engine driven, no output?

Thanks for the good info!

The guy said he called bills about checking the exciter windings after I told him what you said about them being real good for info, and he said they walked him right through the coils tests and were real good and user friendly with their info!

I'll be back after further armature testing, repairs, etc!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-24-2011, 08:38:40 PM
Arkie Arkie is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Oklahoma USA
Posts: 1,165
Thanks: 12
Thanked 288 Times in 262 Posts
Default Re: Lincoln welder, engine driven, no output?

SA-200 is welding!
Be-Aware that this is a un-safe procedure and not recommended by me for all because the automotive group 24 battery can explode. His battery was located approx 20 ft away behind some plywood, etc in case of explosion!
A guy told him to connect a isolated (isolated means not connected to anything else) 12v battery of proper polarity, neg to left brush and pos to right brush lead with jumper cables while the motor is running at proper rpm of approx 1550 and have a DC voltmeter connected to the same point as the brushs and keep a heads up for the brushes to eventually (may take 1-3 minuites) start arcing and at same the voltmeter voltage starts rising and when it get to approx 15 to17 volts unhook the battery and see if the voltage keeps building to the 115vDC. If the voltage decays or drops connect the 12v battery again! He said to keep a heads up when the voltage starts building (getting above the battery volts) and the brushes arcing because the generator exciter is genning back into the 12v battery and to not connect at disconnect at the battery due to possible Hydrogen gas explosion! (the battery is charging and discharging at a high rate)
He said when the gen ran about 2 min and the brushes started arcing and the DC voltage came up to about 17 down to 12 and was unstable and finally the voltage stayed at 17 and the brushes stopped arcing and the DC came to 115 when he un-hooked the battery and he connected a 8 amp grinder to the receptacle and it ran good and tested a weld arc as ok!
The unit had been sitting un-used for about 6 mo's and had two problems, rat chewed wires and loss of pole pieces residual magnetism! Main problem was loss of residual magnetism!

Thanks to all and Dempster for the good helpful info!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Arkie For This Post:
  #14  
Old 03-25-2011, 01:42:11 AM
Dempster Dempster is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Texas USA
Posts: 1,239
Thanks: 97
Thanked 418 Times in 366 Posts
Default Re: Lincoln welder, engine driven, no output?

Another SA200 lives again !
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-25-2011, 06:39:02 AM
Arkie Arkie is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Oklahoma USA
Posts: 1,165
Thanks: 12
Thanked 288 Times in 262 Posts
Default Re: Lincoln welder, engine driven, no output?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dempster View Post
Another SA200 lives again !
Yes about the SA-200 lives again!

The owner of the rat infested welder was also happy that he is now familiar enough with his welder to get around through it electrically! He is now in the process of trying to screen the opening to keep future rats, mice and dirt daubers out of the stored welder! I told him he also needs to consider running the welder about once a month for at least 15 minuites.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump

Similar Threads Chosen at Random
Thread Thread Starter F o r u m Replies Last Post
Lincoln D10 PRO no output redleada2 Welding Shop 1 07-13-2013 05:58:27 AM
F152 Engine for 200 AMP Lincoln Welder 1976 dondjl357 Welding Shop 2 06-25-2010 03:56:01 PM
Old Hobart gas driven welder with 2 cyl Wisconsin Howie Marion Welding Shop 8 11-12-2009 09:01:35 PM
A.O. Smith engine driven DC welder richard welk Welding Shop 17 02-28-2008 02:00:20 PM
FS: Hobart Engine-driven Welder, Very Heavy Duty, in Oregon dozer Welding Shop 0 08-05-2006 05:18:44 PM


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:00:58 PM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2019 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277