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Minneapolis Differential


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  #1  
Old 02-25-2017, 03:13:16 PM
GreasyIron GreasyIron is offline
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Default Minneapolis Differential

We finally figured out why it looked like we have some sharp spider teeth, and some not worn on that 25HP:

One entire spider gear is like new all around, and the other two are worn all around. BUT we're not sure whether the one was replaced and that caused the rest of the story, or somehow that one had been mischievous from early in its life:

The upper shaft retainer is broke on the spider that doesn't show much wear; that allowed the center-line of the shaft to shift, so the other two were doing all the work.

Sooo?
The good: We have a very nice spider gear to use for a casting pattern. The shaft looks pretty good too; the ends may or may not be wore some, but very nice fit to the spider. Unfortunately, spider gears are not among the prints in Dr. Parker's collection, so having a good one does sweeten the problem a little.
The bad: we also need a new shaft retainer. It looks like part number 2755. We'd be interested if anyone has one. I may be able to repair it, but first need to know.....
The ugly: were the shaft retainers oversized from the factory, and babbitted? Or is the babbitt in them from a field repair? If originally solid and the babbitt was field repair then all the shaft retainers were abused pretty good.

It looks like oil holes were available, but just how were the shafts supposed to get decent lubrication? The tubes go to the center bore [which would see more motion], not the spiders.

More questions, what materials were used here? I hear that ductile is the best option to recast the spiders. Was the shaft just mild steel? Was the shaft supposed to turn in the retainers, or was the spider supposed to turn on it while being held stationary? I'd thought the latter, but then even more confused with the babbitt and how the shaft could have got lubrication.

Yes, I know these are seldom subject to high pressure & much motion at the same time. But can envision fixing one thing in a differential only to make everything else worse if I don't repair everything in there at the same time. Even then I imagine some wear-in.

Thanks all!
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Old 02-25-2017, 04:58:45 PM
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BakerMaker BakerMaker is offline
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Default Re: Minneapolis Differential

I made new pinions and shafts for the Keck. The new ones were cast in ductile iron from a 3D printed pattern. Ran into similar problems that you are having.

https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showp...&postcount=107
https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showp...&postcount=123
https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showp...&postcount=130
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Old 02-25-2017, 05:26:17 PM
Oilpulled Oilpulled is offline
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Default Re: Minneapolis Differential

I've not worked on Minneapolis gears so one experienced more than I am may help more.
On my E Oilpull and on others I've seen, The big differential gear is not machined for the location of the differential pinion shaft pins. Rather they have an anti-rotation flat and are located with a fixture at proper angular spacing and then babbitt or similar alloy is poured around the lower half of each end of each pin. A clamp bar piece is tightened over each end with two bolts. This may explain the babbitt which you mentioned which may have been from the factory. If pins are drilled for grease, be sure passages are open and use a non-hardening grease as Mobile 28. My E Oilpull had all grease passages in the diferential plugged with hard grease so I greased the F Oilpull with mobile 28 and a pump grease gun first to be sure it was all clear. I know of an Aultman Taylor and a Reeves 20 steam with the same differential construction.
There are some differential pictures on this post page 3:

https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showt...l+Differential
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Old 02-26-2017, 02:31:36 PM
GreasyIron GreasyIron is offline
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Default Re: Minneapolis Differential

Thanks!

Sounds like I have to proceed with the casting. The good news is that there should soon be a casting model of the spider drawn from a very good specimen. And then we will have some babbitting.

The Minneapolis differential looks like BakerMaker's Keck photos, but the top and bottom retainers are identical on the Minneapolis. I sure like that babbitting alignment set-up photo too!

It looks like a bunch of mfgs had the same plan or somewhat copied each other Oilpulled. The shafts have an M part number, so I expect OEM, but not drilled for oil or grease passages. No anti-rotation flats here. The gear guards look to have a tiny notch right above each shaft, begging to have some oil dripped in. But - assuming the shaft isn't supposed to turn in the Babbitt - I sure don't see oil having an easy path to anything that wants lubrication.

With one strap broken anyway, I may put an anti-rotation flat on the pins and go with flat steel straps, but will need to ponder that a bit. Unless I get crazy and open up the gear guards enough for zerks, I'm thinking about oil-impregnated bronze bushings in the spiders. Sure open to suggestions yet though!
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Old 02-26-2017, 07:41:44 PM
GreasyIron GreasyIron is offline
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Default Re: Minneapolis Differential

A few photos.

The good looking spider. It probably saw some wear, but I still think that it was replaced, or the retainer failed not too long after it was worn in. It probably also got a little polished turning under no load while the other two were doing the work.

The babbitt bores.

The sloppy one.

Am I missing something on the differential locking pin? I hope to not need it, but I find it odd that the set-screw is on the inside, and crowded by the dust guard too. We didn't take it out, but maybe the setscrew is compressing a spring for a detent? If a detent, a little more leverage to move it would be nice. If the setscrew, it seems like an awful awkward place to get to if in the field....probably already a little frustrated.....and running out of new flavors of verbal lubrication to apply to the situation.
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Old 02-26-2017, 07:46:36 PM
GreasyIron GreasyIron is offline
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Default Re: Minneapolis Differential

I noticed a "vice jaw" looking mark on tooth of the spider too. About 11:00 in the photo. Were these clamped like that during mfg, or did somebody have it in vice once?

The digits didn't cast too deep, but, as far as I can tell, it is part number 4094M. The pin is 4095M; that stamp is easier to read.

Last edited by GreasyIron; 02-26-2017 at 09:34:44 PM. Reason: Not clear enough to tell 4004 or 4094.
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Old 02-26-2017, 11:34:51 PM
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Default Re: Minneapolis Differential

Here's a picture of the new gears that were cast for a 20hp by Kory Anderson at Dakota Foundry. Very nice work. Unfortunately I didn't take any pictures when I machined them and installed.
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Old 02-27-2017, 02:05:55 AM
GreasyIron GreasyIron is offline
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Default Re: Minneapolis Differential

Thanks Chris!
Now I have an idea how these will come out; Kory said that he already had the design for a 20HP, possibly part number 4152M.
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Old 02-28-2017, 03:08:33 PM
GreasyIron GreasyIron is offline
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Default Re: Minneapolis Differential

Sample sent. If anyone else needs a set, better get 'em while they're "hot!"

OK, I'm sure that they'll keep the design on file, but nothing like an excuse to get it done now.
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