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Regulator for Propane Needed


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  #11  
Old 11-12-2017, 05:38:47 PM
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Default Re: Regulator For Propane Needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by justme7917 View Post
i seen guys use propane on acetylene cutting torches just to save money
My cutting torch is a 500 gal propane tank out back. We keep the oxy cylinders inside and have valves and regulators mounted on the wall.
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  #12  
Old 12-11-2017, 12:47:38 AM
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Default Re: Regulator For Propane Needed

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Originally Posted by Peter Holmander View Post
dcamp, not trying to hijack this thread but could you use a gas grill regulator and then off of that use an acetylene torch regulator to fine tune it?

I am getting ready to set up my 15HP reid on a hot tube and I read where you can run the feed to the hot tube unregulated, but the feed to the engine itself needs a regulation device. I cannot handle the large 100lb propane tanks so I am going to purchase two 40 lb bottles. Any suggestions on my setup would be appreciated. Thanks
On a gaseous fuel system fed by bottled gas, you need at least ONE regulator to limit the tank's pressure (of anywhere up to 200psi) down to 11" water column or so.

After that, you need a demand regulator... aka 'zero governor'... a negative pressure device that flows fuel only when there's an ENGINE DEMAND to do so (slight vacuum).

Think of it as a regulator that, instead of putting out 5psi at lower limit, is set to ZERO PSI... that means... it won't flow ANY fuel. When you apply a slight vacuum, it flows fuel, and is sensitive enough to STOP flowing fuel when there's no vacuum.

You COULD take a gas grill regulator, an acetylene torch regulator, and cobble up some combination to fuel the engine... it WILL work, but it won't demand regulate, it won't shut off, and it won't be stable. As an added feature, it will offer you the ability to overfuel and underfuel during load fluctuations, and spill fuel into the surrounding environment, mix with local oxygen, and hang out until such time that a source of ignition reaches it and blows your shop to hell... and it'll save you about fifty bucks.

Here's some other notes:

Gas grille regulators accept tank pressure, and eminate about 11" w.c. output... but this is PRESSURE LIMITATION. Along a totally different path, They have very defined VOLUMETRIC limits... that means, although it may be passing a BUNCH of gas volume at 11" w.c., the diameter of the orfices IN the regulator will only pass so_much_fuel_gas... and when you exceed it's rating, there's a sliding valve in there called EXCESS FLOW valve which SLAMS SHUT, preventing any more fuel gas from escaping. This is a safety feature that keeps your gas grill from blowing you up if the burner's pot-metal gas valve corrodes in half, fills with water and freezes/cracks to pieces, or you've drilled out the hole because wasps plugged it with mud... and it also minimizes the mayhem caused when the flexible hose between regulator and burner is compromised.

When you run an engine that, on accellerating to governed speed, demands around 750,000btu/hr of fuel for a few seconds, from a gas grille valve that's rated for 40,000btu/hr, that 'excess flow' valve slams shut, and your engine stops.

So best to use an appropriately sized regulator at EVERY stage.

An acetylene regulator WILL work on propane (those fitted with internals specifically for it will have the best lifespan, of course)... but the acetylene regulator's flow volume is NOT very sensitive to a changing demand... fuel gas torches are static-flow- they don't have changing demand. They're also intended to work in the PSI range, which is SUBSTANTIALLY higher in pressure than Inches of Water Column... so in general, it's an incredibly lousy choice.

Now, in oilfield applications, it was NOT unusual for one of these engines to be fueled off a constant flow source... but typically, that source was 'well head gas'... that was not as likely to flow if the engine stopped running the pumpjack.

If you wanna do a casual test just to see if an engine will actually fire, then give it a try, but don't expect it to be effective, accurate, or even remotely safe to do it in real running.

Wisest to use the 'right' tool for the job. For most machines, the valve combinations I noted above are the best. IMPCO J or Cobra valves to go from full tank pressure liquid or gas down to the mixer, or a 'residential' size first stage regulator (tank down to either 10psi or 2psi), then to a 'residential size' second-stage regulator (from 10 or 2psi 'line' down to 11" w.c.), and then on to a Garretson KN, connected to the mixer.

The latter combination seems more complex... (two regulators+KN to mixer), it's certainly the best performer.

Oh, and remember- if you're using a gas grill tank, and it's getting really cold while you're fueling something, it's gonna start having difficulties under load, because the propane bottle is too cold to facilitate expansion of the liquid propane into gaseous state. Adding heat to the tank, or going to liquid withdrawl to a vaporizer/converter... or just switching to amuch, much larger tank will solve the problem.

---------- Post added at 10:47:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:41:13 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Piekarczyk View Post
Which one? JB, JB-2, JB-3, JB-2ULC, JB-C-140, JB-C-725, JB-L-377, JB-R, JO, JO-2.
The difference in most of these, is wether it's got additional 'features' like manual or electric primer button, no primer button, inlet/outlet sizes, and other features.

IMO, a simple and basic machine that you'll be manually operating doesn't need additional stuff. Notice that the simple one is about $40?
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  #13  
Old 12-12-2017, 10:52:48 AM
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Default Re: Regulator For Propane Needed

Very good and accurate info thank you dkamp!
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  #14  
Old 12-13-2017, 11:51:06 AM
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Default Re: Regulator For Propane Needed

Okay, so in answering Rex's question more directly:

I'm having network connection issues at this hotel, so I can't seem to get a closer look at the engine or mixer to acertain flow... so I'll base the following suggestion on the assumption that this engine is under about 10hp, and the mixer is an Impco CA100, or something generally similar in size and operation. In that case, it's in the same realm as my Fairbanks Morse ZC-118... 118ci, 500rpm single.

Mine is fitted with the following:

Impco CA-100 'clone' mixer... (mixes propane with incoming air) connected to

https://www.propanecarbs.com/garrets...regulator.html
Garretson KN demand regulator (039-122) with standard orfice ( meters propane based on mixer's demand) connected to

several feet of propane-suitable hose, some adapter fittings...

A two-stage regulator that is rated to pass your engine's fuel demand... and a couple adapters and a propane tank fitting.

Here's one possibility that SHOULD work:
https://www.amazon.com/Camco-59333-H.../dp/B0024E6TX2

See how it's rated to 160,000btu? If you were using it on a gas-grille application, it would flow enough fuel to easily run a 160,000btu burner... but if you asked it to flow MORE, it would either become very restrictive (meaning, it would no longer be able to accurately regulate) OR... the Excess Flow safety feature would overrun, shutting off flow altogether.

Now, as I noted above, you didn't give details of which engine, so I'm gonna guess that your engine will demand less than 160000btu, because that equates to 62 thermal 'horsepower'. In a reciprocating engine, efficiency is about 20%, so that means a 12.4hp engine will be taxing it pretty heavily.

The 'gotcha', is that the 160,000btu rating is when flow is CONSTANT. In a single-cylinder engine, the flow swings rapidly with intake events, so it may PEAK at substantially higher airflow, but for a much shorter duration than say a four or eight cylinder engine, and that's why these little singles can have such beastly large intakes. It's why the CA100 on my 6hp 118" oilfield engine works nicely on a 78hp 338ci Hercules JXLD inline six.

Fortunately, the dual stage here is inexpensive, and the bonus, is that it comes with a POL fitting to thread directly to your gas grille.

If you go this route, you'll need some brass plumbing fittings on the Garretson KN input (1/2" NPT IIRC), a few feet of propane-suitable hose, and another fitting from the dual-stage to the hose. Simple push-on bayonet type fittings and a pair of hose-clamps will work fine... and if it's under 10hp, you can get away with 1/2" hose ID as long as it's not more than three-four feet.

When you assemble the components, use gas-rated teflon pipe thread tape... but start at the second thread. I prefer to put teflon thread sealant on over the tape and second thread as well- it's a standard procedure for my gas suppliers, so I follow it with my own. It doesn't take monster torque to keep the seal- don't lean on it hard as it'll just crack up the castings. Your connections will all be at 11" w.c. or lower, so it won't take much force at all to seal your gas piping totally.

Safety note- although the Garretson KN will stop propane flow when the engine is not running, With no automatic lockoff, there's a possiblity that changes in atmospheric pressure, or even wind blowing over the stack of the engine, will cause it to flow fuel. In a liquid fuel comparison, if you leave the gasoline petcock on in a carbeurated engine, the liquid fuel in the float bowl will not only evaporate, changes in air pressure will occasionally cause the fuel to be pulled up from the bowl through main or idle jet into the venturi. (this is one of the reasons why carbeurators on old tractors that don't get run much wind up with empty tanks, crud and water accumulated in the carb and jets... the fuel leaves, the rest stays behind, and oftentimes, winds up in the manifold too...)

Because of this situation, ALWAYS turn off the fuel bottle when not running the engine. Aside from that, everything I've noted above is inexpensive and easy to figure out, and once in, turn on the propane bottle, throw the flywheel over, stand back and laugh as it thump thump thumps along.

---------- Post added at 09:51:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:12:00 AM ----------

Oh... and a blanket caveat-

With respect to the dual-stage regulator, and including the propane tank... I'm basing my recommendation on the assumption that you're running the engine as a display, rather than a hard-working application. The difference being, that in a display environment, you won't be applying a load that demands lots of fuel. A little alternator or generator, mebbie a squirrel-cage fan on a belt, but nothing big. I'm also assuming that it'd be run on sunny, warm outdoor days. Propane in the tank is liquid in the bottom, gaseous vapor on the top. As you withdrawl gas from the top, liquid on the bottom evaporates. In order for the liquid to evaporate, it must expand, which means it needs to absorb heat in order to properly equalize. As this happens, the LIQUID, and the tank structure, get cold... it's drawing heat from the outside environment. IF you attempt to draw fuel out of a tank faster than ambient heat can equalize, the liquid chills so far that it won't evaporate, thus, your tank's internal pressure will fall rapidly, and there will be insufficient gaseous pressure to feed the engine. In this case, there are only two solutions- first, is go to a bigger tank... it has more internal surface area for evaporation, and second, it has more exterior surface and mass to absorb ambient heat. The second solution, is to change the fueling system over to a liquid propane delivery, where liquid propane is withdrawn from the tank, through a 'converter', which is a combination of regulators, evaporators, and sometimes even a demand regulator, so that very low tank pressure can still provide substantial fuel energy. The converter generally always has some method of acquiring lots of heat... like through a pair of hoses coming from the engine's liquid cooling jacket... or in the case of an air-cooled motor, the converter is either mounted in engine cooling airflow, or sometimes it's mounted to a hot spot in the engine via an aluminum bracket to conduct (by convection) a 'certain amount' heat from the engine to the converter. It's not uncommon to see machines like ride-on concrete trowels and large floor-scrubbers, ice-polishers, etc., set up like that...

And now... if you ever see a converter mounted on a bracket to an exhaust manifold or cylinder head, you'll know WHY it was done that way... and when someone moves it to some other mounting place, you know why the engine runs lousy in cold weather! ;-)
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  #15  
Old 12-15-2017, 05:10:57 PM
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Default Re: Regulator For Propane Needed

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Originally Posted by dkamp View Post

The other option, is to connect the 20lb tank directly to an IMPCO J, and then from the J to your CA-100.
The IMPCO J is a combination dual-stage regulator/vaporizer/demand regulator... tank pressure on the input, and demand level output. :

Thanks for all the detailed info, I think this is what I'll do.
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Old 01-13-2018, 07:37:08 PM
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Default Re: Regulator For Propane Needed

Just received a Century C-J B Converter. Description indicates it converts liquid propane to vapor, will it work since I'm supplying it with vapor from the BBQ grill tank?
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Old 02-22-2018, 07:45:29 PM
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Default Re: Regulator For Propane Needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Holmander View Post
dcamp, not trying to hijack this thread but could you use a gas grill regulator and then off of that use an acetylene torch regulator to fine tune it?

I am getting ready to set up my 15HP reid on a hot tube and I read where you can run the feed to the hot tube unregulated, but the feed to the engine itself needs a regulation device. I cannot handle the large 100lb propane tanks so I am going to purchase two 40 lb bottles. Any suggestions on my setup would be appreciated. Thanks
Yes, but no. It'd run, at least 'till it flooded and stalled, or blew the seals and diaphram out of the mixer.

As I noted above, there's a big difference between a regulator, and a DEMAND REGULATOR. A common regulator is nothing more than a 'pressure limiting' device... and it operates under two basic principles:
Incoming pressure from tank, if less than the regulator's setpoint, results in output equal to pressure of tank. Set the reg to 10psi, with only 6psi, you only get 6psi...
Next... if the pressure limiting valve has a minimum 'cracking' pressure, the output of the valve when below the setpoint, is the tank pressure, less the 'cracking' pressure. Let's say it takes 2psi to 'crack open' the valve, and you've got a 10psi regulator, but only 6 psi in the tank, you'll get 4psi out.

Finally... a standard regulator does not work in the NEGATIVE realm.

Running the engine off anything other than a proper demand regulator, means you're just free-flowing fuel gas. Remove the needle valve from your favorite carbeurated engine, and try running it that way... you'll have exactly the same result. Yep, you'll know people who do it... Any time you put fuel in the airstream, an engine will run, just so long as there's oxygen with it. run well, it will probably not. Respond to changes in load, it will never. Shut off fuel flow when the engine stalls, NEVER. If you don't babysit it, you will be treated to an explosion when stray gas finds source of ignition... so anyone who chooses to run unregulated, is both a fool, and an idiot.

The only replacement for a demand regulator... Is a demand regulator. Not a gas grill, not an acetylene torch. A demand regulator.

The Garretson KN is what... fifty-five bucks. An Impco J is fifty five bucks.
Just buy the right danged valve and save yourself all the headaches.

Garretson KN is used when your fuel source is at 11" W.C. pressure.
Impco J is for when fuel source is tank pressure.

The mixer shown above, is a common type like the Impco CA-series, and they're designed to present a slight vacuum to the demand regulator. They have a diaphram in there and some clever workings that make it tailorable... so that it alters it's demand based on airflow... and nothing more. Use them as they're intended, they're basically bulletproof. Put pressure on them, and they're generally wrecked.

Fortunately, these parts are wonderfully inexpensive compared to some of the liquid-fuel stuff that we hafta deal with. there's a reason why they're generally inexpensive: Because the manufacturers would rather you choose do it right... because they don't wanna be sued by your next-of-kin after you've taken a dirt-nap... or worse yet, sued by your next-of-next-of-next of kin, when the whole house was incinerated.

---------- Post added at 05:45:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:43:45 PM ----------

Yes, Rex- it'll work fine with vapor. When you start asking for lots of horsepower, and you've got a really long hose between the tank and J, and the temperature is really cold outside, that's when it'll be happier with liquid to work with.

It'll be fine with vapor.
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Old 02-22-2018, 11:18:10 PM
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Question Re: Regulator For Propane Needed

Progress Report

Installed a new Century JB between the 40 LB propane tank and new IMPCO 100 carb.

After several unsuccessful starting attempts the carb diaphragm was found to be wrinkled and I replaced it with a new one. It started and ran perfectly at governed 550 RPM for 5 minutes, then I moved the governor spring to a lower speed for about a minute. When I placed the spring back to the original setting it started to fire once, miss @ 3 then fire again. So far we haven't been able to correct this
When shut down and re started it fires 5 times consecutively then resumes the one out of three pattern. It doesn't reach enough speed for the governor to pull the throttle off full open.

Tried this while running:
Move carb mixture vane
Move throttle
Turn idle air screw
Hold primer button in

The only improvement occurs when I pull on the intake valve, then it fires almost consistently.

What can I do next?
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Old 02-23-2018, 12:44:31 AM
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Default Re: Regulator For Propane Needed

If pulling on the intake valve makes it run better, then you've got either a seating issue, or a binding issue... causing vacuum leak and lean running, it won't draw intake mixture consistently.

Too much slop in the stem/guide can caouse both seating AND binding issue.

A spring that's a little too weak can cause problems... but you certainly don't want to too strong, as that'll keep it from opening on the downstroke.

and the metal gadget that goes over the top of the valve and spring, that kinda 'grips' it shut... if it's corroded or dry, will keep the intake valve from closing all the way.

what I would do, is take off the head, disassemble the valve and spring, clean up that stem really good, and clean the springs, etc., all really good, scrub off all the corrosion and mebbie brighten up the contact surfaces with a little emory cloth, then clean them good, drop the valve back in, give it a little lapping compound and a sucker-stick, take it out, clean up again, then lightly lube the stem, spring, etc., and reassemble, and give it another try.
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Old 02-23-2018, 08:54:36 AM
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Default Re: Regulator For Propane Needed

How is the intake valve split nut removed?
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