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Welding Shop

Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion


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  #21  
Old 01-11-2019, 12:46:15 AM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Is this a welding machine? Can I run it on a phase converter?

Full schematic found on machine is pics 1 & 2 in post 15, but that is pre mods for Hanovia, I think....
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Old 01-11-2019, 01:32:44 AM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Is this a welding machine? Can I run it on a phase converter?

Got around to the back side this evening to investigate the terminal board and see what voltage it was currently wired for. I can see where jumpers should be, but there are none? After removing fan the terminal board is easier to see, I do see some wire jumpers on backside, they do not match up with voltage jumper diagram, maybe these are what I need to remove to isolate transformer windings?

When I purchased this item it was in pretty nice condition, other than a few dents and scratches, and the leads obviously cut off, it was like new. The lack of jumpers on back for input voltage has me questioning if this thing was ever in service.
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Old 01-11-2019, 03:39:04 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Is this a welding machine? Can I run it on a phase converter?

Wow! Miracles do happen, got a response from Miller this morning "The machine was made for Hanovia. It is a SRH 333. I have attached a circuit diagram of the machine. It is a 3 phase only, stick welding machine."

I am going to claim ignorance on differences between the SRH222 and SRH333, but Daves SRH333 is 350 amps, yet label on my machine is 200 amps

Schematic from Miller below, note the 4 capacitors are not shown. And it shows model as SRH333D, I wonder what the D stands for?
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:23:25 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Is this a welding machine? Can I run it on a phase converter?

Not much time for working on this today, mainly some head scratching and a few texts to dkamp for some help. First pic below, I think these wires are the A-B, B-C, C-A connections that need to be removed to isolate coils?

Second pic is the input voltage taps, there were no jumpers on these, I think I need to add jumpers here in the 230V configuration as seen in pic 1 of post 23?

I think my thoughts above are correct, just need confirmation, yes, no, or go back to drawing board and think about it some more
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:32:47 PM
cobbadog cobbadog is offline
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Default Re: Is this a welding machine? Can I run it on a phase converter?

Great news for you dalmatiangirl. Your feelings were right all along and I'm glad you now know exactly what it is before something got damaged.
Well done fella !
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Old 01-12-2019, 04:55:18 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Is this a welding machine? Can I run it on a phase converter?

Any chance I can get a moderator to change the title of this thread? The machine has been positively identified as a welding machine, and instead of running it on a phase converter I am now in process of converting it to single phase using Haas-Kamp method. "Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion" would be more apt and searchable. Thank you!
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Old 01-12-2019, 11:11:44 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Is this a welding machine? Can I run it on a phase converter?

Little more progress today, removed the A-B, B-C, C-A jumpers and removed L3 to power switch and return line. Dkamp, looked at your pics and how you used the 2 contactors, and read your explanation of why you did it that way, not seeing the benefit, at least not for my application. I'm thinking just use a terminal/power distribution block, one of the multi connection ones, I know I packed a box of those up earlier in year and pretty sure it went into trailer, dug thru half dozen boxes marked "misc electrical" today but did not find one yet.

Just finished some online searching for 180 or 200uf 400+v run caps, not seeing any that size on Surplus Center, Grainger, McMaster, or ebay, and what is available in smaller sizes all have spade terminals not the screw terminals.

Rambling thoughts, that wire hanging loose by bridge rectifier did not get that way by accident, job security for a Hanovia tech, or clueless repair tech are my best guess, I reconnected it today. The schematic provided by Miller has note of "Meters and filters optional" or something to that effect, I'm wondering if those 4 capacitors are "filters", anyone here know anything about filters on welding machines?

Am I talking to myself?
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Old 01-13-2019, 01:06:08 AM
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Default Re: Is this a welding machine? Can I run it on a phase converter?

I'm here! But I'm just watching as this is above my pay grade. Am guessing the run caps are used to provide a phase shift to power the otherwise unpowered transformer primary when running on single phase. Been sticking around to find out!
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Old 01-13-2019, 02:21:03 AM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Is this a welding machine? Can I run it on a phase converter?

Yes, that is what I need the run caps for, 230vac goes to each coil, coil A wired L1 and L2, coil B wired L1 and L2 but run caps inline for 90 degree phase shift, coil C wired L2 and L1, ie 180 degree phase shift from coil A. Its over my pay grade too, but think I'm on the right track. Credit for this concept goes to Haas & Kamp.
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Old 01-13-2019, 03:24:24 PM
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Default Re: Is this a welding machine? Can I run it on a phase converter?

Okay, so that little bridge rectifier... it's function is to provide DC current to power the output controls.

The output control on this machine, and the SRH series, works on a very simple iron concept: When you run alternating current through a coil, the magnetic field around that coil LIMITS how much current can flow. The intensity of the field is determined by the core, and any OTHER fields acting on it, because the core and other fields is so strong, that the AC current that's coming through is totally swamped. They're frequently referred to as 'control reactors', because the inductive reactance is modulated by a control winding.

For the purpose of physics, and how it's employed in welding transformer control... there's two types of variable transformers. First, is to use windings with changeable taps... this changes the transformation ratio of voltage from input to output. The second type, the turns ratio stays constant, but the CORE of the transformer (which is 'organizing' the mangnetic field) is altered... like... moved in and out (a 'slug') or rotated off-axis... so that the coupling angle changes. When magnetic coupling changes, the transformation character changes, and the most obvious (for a welding transformer) is current limitation.

So this arc lamp supply, and it's SRH-series brothers, are using the control reactor concept... they push DC through one set of coils in the reactor to force the output current DOWN.

So... yeah, that wire is suppose to go onto the bridge rectifier. With it disconnected, the amount of current and voltage available through the control circuit is limited, so it'll probably be running at full output, or be very minimally limited by the control circuit.

This IS an SRH series machine- no doubt about it. The drawing number styles on the schematic are MILLER.

MILLER may actually know nothing about it... These machines were likely purchased by a company, refaced, slightly modified internally (those big capacitors are just to reduce ripple), and included as part of the carbon-arc lamp military contract.

Timeframe wise... I have no idea what they'd use a 300A carbon-arc supply for in the 1970's... I'm thinkin' that'd be a bit too much for a movie projection, but it MAY be a total ruse... identified as a 'carbon arc' lighting supply, but it was actually intended for some other purpose that just happened to be 'close enough' to keep a secret... like... powering an underwater intrusion detection coil at a naval station...

Do the conversion... go with about 150 uF or so, don't change the other circuitry, just land that bridge rectifier connection and it'll be fine. Once you have it operational, adjust the middle coil capacitance a little to see what it wants, and try disconnecting the 'searchlight' capacitors and see what happens to your bead.

---------- Post added at 01:24:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:09:09 PM ----------

In reading more... it may actually HAVE been used to drive a carbon-arc spotlight for a large performance (think Rolling Stones in a major stadium) application. Back in the early 70's, the huge outdoor concert venues didn't have other alternatives but long-reach/high power to get intense stage lighting, so they used carbon-arc. Mole Richardson comes to mind.


Ah... more info... searching Elgelhard Hanovia... they made industrial high intensity lighting, and they apparently did lots of UV stuff.... think... water purification (scientific grade?) and curing of composites (like carbon graphite structural stuff). It was more likely used in that application.

Last edited by dkamp; 01-13-2019 at 03:30:52 PM. Reason: More info...
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  #31  
Old 01-13-2019, 09:36:35 PM
Greg Mosley Greg Mosley is online now
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Default Re: Is this a welding machine? Can I run it on a phase converter?

Greetings D...,girl. Interesting topic and device. Ill throw in my 2 cents worth. Way back in the mid seventies and early eighties there were a few Drive In and Movie Theaters left that used Carbon Arc Projectors. It is possible ithat it was a replacement power supply. They were LV and H. Amp DC which would fit the bill. Enuf Said.
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Old 01-13-2019, 11:22:32 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Is this a welding machine? Can I run it on a phase converter?

Back story on this unit:
Back in the late 90's I purchased this unit from USAF-KAFB, honestly forget what I paid for it, sure it was cheap because that is how I roll. My guess would be either base water system, or UV curing for aircraft work, but who knows? Intention was re-sale, lets face it, you don't find Hanovia compact arc lamp power systems everyday (I've never seen another), certainly someone would want it? 10 years later it was still there, price was down to 500, and not one person had ever called about it. The day finally came where the question was "what are my other options?", there was that ever present question of it looks like a welder, and more than a few walk-thru customers had inquired about the "Miller" shoved off in the corner, so that is where this thread started.

I could use a good stick welder, sold the old tombstone welder in 1990 when I got the mig, with 5000 sq ft warehouse I could work indoors and the mig worked great. When I downsized to 2500 sq ft the mig had to go out the door sometimes and if it was a windy day forget about getting a decent weld. New shop is about 1400 sq ft, not enough room to do anything big inside, so its time to get stick capability again.

Found some big caps, most out of china (made elsewhere), but would prefer not to support that market. Found some here in USA, 200uf/450v, bit pricey so I made an offer, waiting to hear back.

Edit: Caps are on the way!
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  #33  
Old 01-14-2019, 04:34:07 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Is this a welding machine? Can I run it on a phase converter?

Rambling thoughts while I wait for caps: (feel free to toss in .02c)

There is no "power on" indicator light on front panel of this machine, you'd think fan noise would be enough, but I usually have earplugs in because of grinder noise, and it keeps hot spatter out of my ears so I don't do the crazy dance, so I like being able to look at machine and see it is on. Think I'm going to add a red panel light.

As I turned off overhead lights from my warm bed last night using the remote control key fob thingy from HF, I had an idea. If I used contactors as Dkamp did to power the main transformer coils, and instead of a toggle switch on front panel, use a remote control, that way I could climb up on something with machine on but cables dead, get setup, push key fob to energize contactors, do weld, then de-energize contactors so cables are dead as I climb down. If I did this I would add another panel light, this time green, so I could see when cables were "live".

I'm sitting here thinking about what contactors to use and hit a stumbling block. In its original 230v/3ph configuration this machine used 54amps on 3 legs, so 54 x 3= 162, so for single phase 162 divided by 2 = 81 amps per leg? Is this correct? If I run that 81 thru 3 legs of contactor, 81 divided by 3 = 27 amps per contact? Is my math here correct? I have some A-B contactors rated at 32A (with 110vac coils) I think these would work? The 81 divided by 3 is because both L1 and L2 have to be split 3 ways to power coils individually, using 2 contactors I will bring L1 to top of #1 contactor, then add jumpers across top to other 2 terminals, same with L2 on separate contactor, that way I can pull individual leads from bottom of contactor.

If I use contactors with 110vac coils, and 110vac panel lights, I'm thinking I need to bring a line from neutral on input panel and put it thru 3rd set of contacts on master panel switch? All seems rather unorthodox, and will confuse the hell out of anyone else that tries to work on it?
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Last edited by dalmatiangirl61; 01-14-2019 at 06:30:49 PM.
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Old 01-14-2019, 06:28:09 PM
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Default Re: Is this a welding machine? Can I run it on a phase converter?

54 amps per line on 3 phase would be ~94 amps in single phase for the same voltage and power. Sounds like you'd be burning one hell of a big stick with that! The ratio is the Square Root of 3. Not sure if it'll work out that way with the caps and all. One advantage is that the contactor would not normally be opened under load... And the load is not continuous. A contactor from an A/C unit comes to mind...
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Old 01-14-2019, 09:29:35 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Is this a welding machine? Can I run it on a phase converter?

Would that 94 amps get divided by 3 when split into 3 legs? If so that would be at limit of contactor, but then again how often would I have dial at max power? I'm just thinking along the lines that all components should be up to full power capability, just in case, contactors I installed are pictured below, I have higher rated ones if I should step up a size?

The type of remote I was thinking of is pictured below, cheap cheap from HF, and saw a selection of same type at ACE last week, the HF units are rated at 110vac 15amp, not sure of amp draw on contactor coils? Another thought crossed my mind, would electromagnetic fields from welding machine affect the remote unit? Way above my pay grade! Also wondering if remote will work once all covers are on machine?
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Old 01-15-2019, 02:28:43 AM
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Default Re: Is this a welding machine? Can I run it on a phase converter?

To get the same power in single phase as three phase, the current is multiplied by √3 (~1.73). So, for example, a phase converter that outputs 10 amps 3 phase requires 17.3 amps single phase input (losses not withstanding, and assuming there is no voltage change as well).

I'm not sure about your remote. I would think such a device might be quite susceptible to RF energy, but not so much magnetic? I'd imagine most of the magnetic energy is contained within the core too...
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Old 01-15-2019, 09:19:51 AM
dkamp dkamp is offline
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Default Re: Is this a welding machine? Can I run it on a phase converter?

Hi Kris-

The remote control is an excellent idea... but your concerns about being inside the case are valid- having the receiver inside the machine's case will substantially attenuate the radio signal AND saturate it with wideband noise.

I've got several of these, I've been using an outdoor-type version on a driveway light- I kick it on while clearing snow... and while it's handy, the range is downright dismal... it won't turn on unless I'm within about 35 feet... it'll turn off as far as 60... this one (Watts) is advertised at 80ft. They operate in a very-low-power non-liscensed band, and clearly, the engineers didn't want to give the FCC any reason to think they'd exceed type acceptance limitations. I'm certain if the units had a proper-length external antenna, they'd be able to reach out much farther, under much worse conditions. ;-)

Your addition of contactor is for basically the same reason for mine- what I intended (and what I'll eventually do) is hang a pair of busbars along the shop ceilings, about 4-5" apart, and connect the supply's output to those bars, and then I'll make a pair of 20-foot leads on a 6 foot wooden pole, with two hooks on the end, that I can hang the leads on... when I need to weld, I'll just carry the leads to the work area, and hang the stick's hooks on the busbars (minding the desired polarity, of course) and when ready, I'll activate the supply's contactor.

You need a larger contactor... the small ones would work, but it's asking an awful lot of them... because the capacitors will impart a bit of a surge on pull-in, and depending on load and phase angle, might burn the contacts a bit on release. A 15hp 3ph contactor would be more appropriate.

---------- Post added at 07:15:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:03:39 AM ----------

A simpler way to figure out how much the contactor will need, is to calculate the output power, and just translate that to 240v.

So let's start with 50v @200A. That's 10,000w. Now, divide 10,000 by 240... you got 41.6 Amperes.

Be conservative- Round it to 50... because there's more going in than coming out... you're spinning a fan, and generating heat and noise.

Now... notice in previous post I said 15hp... that was calculated, in an arbitrary way. I know that it's a 10kw machine. 1hp is .745w... that means 1kw is 1.34hp.

Let's say this is a 10kw machine... that's 13.4hp. If you were to split that between two legs, it's 6.7hp per leg.

Let's say a 15hp 3-phase contactor spreads it's power over three legs... that'd be 5hp per leg, right? Yeah, something like that.

When this thing's pulling hard, it's gonna load two of the three legs to a max of around 6.7... and mebbie under beastly conditions.. .10hp per leg. Seems like it's a bit overloaded, doesn't it? Perhaps... I wouldn't put it past Kris to run it into limited-duty-cycle range... but I doubt she'd be fabricating a 60' long I beam from 3/4" plate steel without stopping frequently for air and Perrier. A 15hp motor-type contactor sees an incredible starting current, so hitting it with a 25hp overload won't do it any harm... and... it won't be STARTING it (meaning, closing or opening under that load. It'll be closing and opening under minimum load conditions... it'll already be in a closed position when the arc current is ramped up.

---------- Post added at 07:19:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:15:01 AM ----------

By the way- side note for the day:

What differentiates Relays from Contactors?

They both do the same job... but they're different:

When the electromagnet of a relay pulls in, the contacts close, right?

Contactor is exactly the same way... but...

When a CONTACTOR is open, the coil's polepieces are just close enough for the coil's magnetic field to pull them together... and it takes a fair amount of current in the coil to do it.

Once the coil has pulled in the armature, though, the polepieces mate, creating a consolidated magnetic field, that holds the contacts in TIGHT... AND...

The inductance of the now-mated polepieces increases dramatically- it increases so much, that the coils' impedance rises substantially... which decreases the amount of current flowing through the contactor coil.

A relay's coil does not. It draws essentially same amount of power regardless of wether contacts are open or not.

The difference? A contactor draws very little power once pulled in... and as a result, the coil generates substantially less heat, and is much less susceptible to fluctuations in supply voltage.
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Old 01-17-2019, 09:55:18 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion

Decided to pop open one of the remote control switches the other night, pulling the guts and hard wiring it in would be a cinch. Pretty sure that little sewing needle piece is the antenna, not sure if soldering a wire to it would help, or if it would have to be some micro coax with a needle sized antenna on top of the machine. I did find some online, ordered out of china, with 300 meter claimed range, if one of those worked at 50-75 ft I'd be happy.

Contactors have been upgraded tp Telemecanique 80 amp/20hp@230v with 110vac coils, most of wiring is in.

Caps showed up today, a bit larger than I imagined, these should let me run hot fast beads

Dkamp, only 150uf caps I could find were 250vac.
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Old 01-19-2019, 06:13:51 PM
Jim Geraci Jim Geraci is offline
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Default Re: Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion

Dalmatiangirl61

As you have discovered your arc light source is a unremarkable welding machine.

The circuitry used is common to the many makes built as the machine manufacturers searched for ways to control the welding current without massive switches (late 40s - 50s) and beyond.

In the lower left hand corner is a remote add-on that you can use to control welding current and start and stop machine if you add a sw. Center bottom is a 3 Ph transformer with a MA1 next to it. This is a Magnetic Amplifier that uses DC current to control the welding current.

Most of Millers manuals are available as PDFs. The operation should be explained there. Don't remember if $ involved.

Biggest drawback is the remote control is a foot pedal control about the size of a shoe box with a foot pedal on top. Big - heavy. Control current is high so all big.

Because these old welders are finding their way into the scrap the foot controls are grossly expensive. Not much demand for new.

The Miller manual will have a remote control P/N. Most of the remotes are alike with different guts. A broken/different P/N can be modified as parts are avail from Miller (bring clean money) or Ebay. You will have to add a SP micro switch to control weld contactor.

I have a Magna-Tran welder bought from Gov surplus in Houston (years ago)and it has very similar weld circuits + Hi Freq and gas/water controls for TIG welding. I used a "broken" Ebay remote + Ebay sourced internals to match it to my machine. It has remote ON/OFF on pedal.

Please note that a remote on these machine requires a wire wound resistor in the remote. The foot pedal moves a carbon brush across the resistor to vary the DC into the MagAmp. On my machine the resistor is made up of (4) wire resistor in a bundle. Each is about 3/8" Dia 3" long. These welders are old school. You adj max current with panel rheostat and your foot pedal is min to whatever max you chose.

Both SRH 222/333 are available on the net as PDFs. I did notice the 333 has a pilot light.

JLG
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Old 01-21-2019, 11:24:40 PM
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Default Re: Miller SRH-333/Hanovia 3 Phase to Single Phase Conversion

Kris- that remote might be a bit higher up the spectrum... 868 or 915mhz... but based on construction, probably not over 1ghz.

As Jim noted, the remote is big, but it's not like the footpedal assembly used in the 'bumblebee' TIG/stick refrigerator units, as the SRH didn't have a 'contactor' to shut off output control, it just had the mag-amp's switch. I actually have one of the remote boxes intended for the SRH sitting atop my SRH in the shop... it's just three wires to the potentiometer.

Those caps will probably get you in the ballpark. They're certainly high enough voltage to work fine... Did you salvage them from a bright-red experimental Italian electric motorcycle? :-) They look like they could'a been cylinders from a Desmo liter-bike!
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