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Fordson Wehr Governor Oil Level + Trans Oil Questions


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  #11  
Old 04-25-2017, 10:44:19 PM
Nik M Nik M is offline
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Default Re: Fordson Wehr Governor Oil Level + Trans Oil Questions

Ed, the place wear the governor rod hooks is L-shaped and pivots in the middle. When the rod moves, the L pivots and in turn pivots the flat piece on the end of the throttle shaft. That way they took a linear motion and turned it into a rotational motion. I assume that piece came with the governor.
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Old 04-26-2017, 08:45:22 AM
Rick McKay Rick McKay is offline
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Default Re: Fordson Wehr Governor Oil Level + Trans Oil Questions

Nik & Ed,

That linkage bracket is supposed to be at the rear of the engine. It supports both the timing and throttle rods. The front bracket should have a single loop for the timing rod only.

Rick
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Old 04-26-2017, 11:53:23 AM
Steve Welker Steve Welker is offline
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Default Re: Fordson Wehr Governor Oil Level + Trans Oil Questions

NiK,
Rick is correct, that support bracket is normally on the back head bolt supporting both the throttle rod and the timer rod.

You are also correct that the piece on the front of the vaporizer came with the governor. It does exactly what you said, converts the push-pull motion into rotary motion to turn the throttle shaft from the front side. There is one other piece to making the governor work. The throttle shaft connection at the rear of the vaporizer can be attached in 2 ways, a tight notch and a loose notch. The tractor comes from the factory hooked up in the tight notch. When adding the governor, it needs to be connected in the loose notch, which allows the governor to close the throttle plate to regulate top engine speed, and the hand throttle just becomes an adjustable stop for the max throttle plate open position.

This setup works OK for belt work where you want to run the engine at a constant 1000 RPM (Fordson rated speed), but does not work like a governor on more modern tractors where the governor opens or closes the throttle plate to maintain whatever speed you set by the hand throttle.

On a modern governor when you open the hand throttle, you are increasing spring tension on the governor arm which counteracts the force of the weights in the governor that close the throttle plate, allowing the throttle plate to open further, and in-turn allows the engine to run at a higher RPM. The governor is maintaining a balance between the throttle lever spring tension and the internal weight force to maintain an engine RPM. I would call this a variable RPM governor. Closing the hand throttle still positively closes the throttle plate.

An aftermarket Fordson governor that attaches to the front of the vaporizer (this WEHR included) does not work in this manner. When you open the hand throttle when it is in the loose notch, you are basically removing the positive stop that closes the throttle plate. This allows engine vacuum to open the throttle plate raising the engine RPM until the fixed RPM of the governor is reached that closes the throttle plate to maintain this speed. I would call this a fixed RPM governor. Very primitive, but worked well enough for stationary belt work.

Some aftermarket Fordson governors had a secondary adjustment where you could vary the spring tension to the governor providing what I would call a variable fixed RPM governor. For some this was a knob you turned on the governor, or a pull chain that went back to the dash. A little better but still not what we are used to today.

The only Fordson governor that I am aware of that worked like a modern governor is the Pierce model B. This is the Fordson Governor that is mounted on the coil box side and has a cast 'rooster comb' that mounts to the inside of the dash near the air washer. A proper working one of these is just as good as the factory Model 'N' governor. I've never cared for the 'feel' of the other governors when the throttle is hooked up in the loose notch. To me it feels like the hand lever is broken or unhooked entirely and gives me an uneasy feeling.

-Steve
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Old 04-26-2017, 08:30:42 PM
Nik M Nik M is offline
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Default Re: Fordson Wehr Governor Oil Level + Trans Oil Questions

Thanks Rick and Steve. Steve, so the way mine is is not correct per your description. Is that why the other end of the throttle rod has a second, opposite hole? Rotating the rod 180 degrees and hooking the throttle link rod to the short side would make the rod more responsive to hand throttle movement. This would counteract the fact that you have to traverse the wider slot to act upon the throttle shaft tang. If I'm reading you right, you say this still doesn't feel right and the hand throttle doesn't seem to have positive enough action on engine speed.

The narrow slot is a little wider than the throttle shaft tang, so the governor does get a little free action (a couple degrees of throttle shaft movement) before the tang hits the other side of the narrow throttle rod slot. So it seems the governor would be able to maintain minor dips in engine speed. Maybe this is a medium solution. I suppose either slot keeps the engine from running away, and the wider slot just helps overcome greater speed dips. Maybe I'm all wet, though.
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Old 04-26-2017, 11:07:45 PM
Nik M Nik M is offline
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Default Re: Fordson Wehr Governor Oil Level + Trans Oil Questions

Steve, this Wehr ad shows a chain going back to the dash and maybe a spring between the chain and governor rod. Do you think all of this type of Wehr is supposed to have this? Maybe mine isn't a complete setup.
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Old 04-27-2017, 08:42:25 AM
Steve Welker Steve Welker is offline
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Default Re: Fordson Wehr Governor Oil Level + Trans Oil Questions

Nik,
First off, good pictures showing what I was trying to describe!

Yes, rotating the throttle rod 180 degrees so the wide slot is engaged with the throttle shaft tang is the way it was meant to be hooked up with a governor. And you are correct the shorter hole for the throttle link does make it more responsive, but I could never get over the weird feeling of the wide slot requiring more movement of the throttle lever to have an effect on engine speed. As you can see, this wide slot is approx. 90deg. (1/4) of the cup on the end of the throttle rod. This allows the governor to move the throttle plate full its full range from wide open (full load) to practically closed (no load) while maintaining a constant RPM.

The narrow slot only allows very minor movement, and since the governor will most of the time have force against one side of this notch trying to close the throttle, I doubt you feel the play.

I knew one of the Fordson Governors used a chain, just did not remember it was this one. Sure looks like it should have the chain. Without this chain and spring the governor would probably hold the engine to a lower than max RPM. Also this spring tension would make the engine more responsive as this would open the throttle plate instead of just engine vacuum when you move the hand throttle. This chain would have had spring attached to the arm on the part that hooks to the front of the vaporizer. You can see the spring clearly in the very first picture of this thread. The more tension you put on the spring by pulling the chain resulted in a higher governed RPM. This pull chain becomes your way of regulating governed RPM, and the original hand throttle become little more than an adjustable positive stop for maximum throttle plate position. In fact, you could probably totally remove the original hand throttle and just use the chain to regulate engine speed, but not being able to 'push' the chain you would loose a positive way to close the throttle which could be scary if the governor failed!

-Steve
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Old 04-27-2017, 09:54:16 AM
Steve Welker Steve Welker is offline
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Default Re: Fordson Wehr Governor Oil Level + Trans Oil Questions

Ed,
In post #10 you say about having one run on the original coils. When it comes to hooking up the timer, I wanted to give you a tip on the proper parts.

There are 2 styles of timer rod brackets, one is the style Nik shows that locates the rod straight off the top of the head. These brackets are used with 1925 and newer dashes that have the kill switch at the bottom of the timer quadrant.

Attached is a picture of the older style bracket that drops down along the side of the head, that was used with older dashes from 1924 and earlier that do not have the kill switch.

Most importantly, these 2 different style brackets require 2 different links down to the timer. using the wrong link will either advance or retard the timing too far depending on the combo used.

-The early drop brackets require a shorter rod, roughly 12" end to end.
-The later horizontal brackets require a longer rod roughly 14" end to end.

Incorrectly using the short rod with the horizontal brackets would advance the timing to the point that there is a very good chance the engine will kick and maybe break an arm or wrist!

-Steve
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Old 04-27-2017, 11:57:04 AM
Nik M Nik M is offline
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Default Re: Fordson Wehr Governor Oil Level + Trans Oil Questions

Steve, I'll briefly pause to say thank you and the others for all the help. Fordson F information is harder to find than the Model T or a later model tractor, and I appreciate the detail we're getting into here.

I see your point on the governor action. I always thought of a governor as raising the rpm when the engine bogged, but what I'm understanding now is that either a spring or engine vacuum acts on the butterfly and raising the rpm and that the governor's pull is the lower rpm. If what your saying with regards to 90 degree governor action is accurate, you could basically run the belt (let's saying grinder) at just off idle, throw a bucket of corn in and the tractor would go up to high speed, then the tractor would go back to off idle after the corn went through. When you read the ad, that's kind of what it describes. I've just always run an engine (newer) at high speed via the hand throttle; then the governor enables even higher speed on a particularly big load. I guess it's the same thing but not over as big of rpm range.

It seems that the way I have it now would minimally work, flipping the slot over would work but would require vacuum to pull the butterfly open, adding a fixed spring to the governor rod would work better, and adding a spring/chain that is adjustable would allow response adjustability.
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Old 04-27-2017, 03:30:57 PM
Steve Welker Steve Welker is offline
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Default Re: Fordson Wehr Governor Oil Level + Trans Oil Questions

Nik,
I'm glad to share any info on Fordsons I have. Since there were so many made, they are often overlooked as an inexpensive way to have fun with a steel wheeled tractor. Any help I can be to assist people in getting them running again, helps to keep them interesting and out of the scrap pile.

You are pretty close on your understanding of a centrifugal governor. They work by the fact as their RPM raises, the weights move outward, causing the governor arm to close the throttle plate, which in-turn lowers the RPM. When the RPM lowers, the weights move in, the arm relaxes it's closing force on the throttle plate allowing either engine vacuum or a spring to open the throttle plate. This then raises the RPM. This repeats infinitely until a steady state RPM is reached. Your grinder example is close, but a little off. What is happening is;
Say you are running an empty grinder at a given RPM of 500 by setting your governor. To maintain this RPM at a 'no-load' condition, the governor is holding the throttle plate practically closed, as the tractor need very little air/fuel to run the grinder at 500 RPM without any corn. When you throw in the bucket of corn, the load increases, and as the engine tries to slow down, the governor allows the throttle plate to open up to maintain the 500 RPM. The engine is not raising in RPM, but the throttle plate is opening further to allow more air/fuel to enter making more power and noise. The increased noise may seem like the tractor is running faster, but it is not at a higher RPM, just a higher power level.

Simple way of describing a centrifugal governor is that it tries to maintain a set RPM by varying the throttle plate position to meet the load of the tractor. For example when mowing with a newer tractor and you move the hand throttle until the tach reads 540 PTO RPM, and off you go forgetting about touching the hand throttle while you make the weeds fly. If the governor is working correctly, the mower will stay at 540 PTO RPM regardless of going up or down hill or how thick the grass is. This is because the governor allows the throttle plate in the carb to open, or closes it, depending on the load.

In your last sentence you are spot on. Currently hooked up in the tight notch does not allow the governor to do it's full job. I suggest hooking it up in the loose notch and giving it a try, you may like the way it performs. I've gotten so used to running Fordsons over the last 35+ years without a governor, hooking one up seems odd to me.

-Steve
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Old 04-27-2017, 09:26:55 PM
Nik M Nik M is offline
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Default Re: Fordson Wehr Governor Oil Level + Trans Oil Questions

Steve, thanks. I think I'll be playing around with things until I get it how I like it. This will get me headed in the right direction.
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