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Re: How it's Done 3-5


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  #21  
Old 08-14-2015, 06:37:07 PM
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Photo Re: How it's Done 2-1

Looks like a very interesting and informative thread.

Don't know if this will apply to your motorcycle engines or not, but for those of us playing around with antiques I figured I'd repost a shot from an old 1920s automotive book I have where it talks about cylinder offsets.

An old drag racer trick used to be (maybe still is) to put pistons in backwards because the wrist pin is offset a little to cut down on piston slap and installing them backwards gives you a better rod angle on the power stroke.

What those 'racers' probably didn't know is that in the early days of engine building the entire cylinder was offset from the crankshaft for that very reason.

While the racers were happy to achieve .060 to .090 offset on a 4 inch piston, the old engines (as per my book) were offset "Up To" 1/6th the bore diameter.

That's a Full 1 inch offset on a 6 inch diameter bore, or a 1/2 inch offset on a 3 inch bore.

That .090 offset is childs play in comparison.

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  #22  
Old 08-14-2015, 08:04:26 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 2-1

Otto; I’m so glad that you brought this up. I’ve always wondered who might know about such things & could mathematically show results from various offsets? Different leverages & such?
JT
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Old 08-14-2015, 08:30:10 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 2-1

On the old 130 5 hp Briggs Go Kart engine, we could offset the bore to the valve side or the off valve side, or front. Offsetting to the valve side seemed to improve bottom end, and toward the front, improved top end. We also would anle bore them, to enhance either bottom or top end. Also, on a flat head, such as these, we'd angle cut the deck more to the valve side to increase flow.
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Old 08-14-2015, 08:55:41 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 2-1

.03mm = .00118"? 1mm= .03937"

---------- Post added at 05:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:30 PM ----------

Pat; thank you for the ideas. Did you ever run some DYNO comparisons on any of your ideas? It would be nice to see what happens to the torque curves. If a DYNO isn’t available some track time averages are just as telling.
JT

---------- Post added at 05:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:38 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by slip knot View Post
Very informative. I've always sent my machine work out to get done but never actually saw how any of it was accomplished.
Slip Knot; By following along with the thread, you will gain some more knowledge so you will know what kinds of questions to ask your Machine shop. Thank you for the comments; we can all learn from one another.
JT
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Old 08-14-2015, 09:18:53 PM
Pat Barrett Pat Barrett is offline
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Default Re: How it's Done 2-1

No, John, never did. Did this for some folks, and later got a dyno, but didn't do any of the offset bored engines. Did take some stock bores and angle bored them, took a .030 bore to clean up the angle bore. Could angle bore more if I bored and put sleeve in, but never did that. Wish I would have tried it when I had the dyno. Some of the best gains I saw on the dyno was flowing the carb and getting the jetting to what the engine liked. Exhaust also showed good gains with one matched for engine use. Other things that worked for me, using the Wiseco pistons was to cut clearance down to .0015 or .002 and finish cylinder with a nylox brush to finish the cylinder.
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Old 08-14-2015, 10:19:14 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 2-1

Pat, your post brought back memories of the aluminum bore briggs engines.
We had a problem honing them after a bore as they would gall with a hone.

After boring to size I'd simply glass bead the bore and put them together. Worked a treat and they ran well with zero oil consumption.
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Old 08-14-2015, 11:00:13 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 2-1

Pat; Interesting that you made the comment about the tight clearance & a Wiesco piston. When Dover bought out Wiesco & put it under the PMI name with ProX & JE pistons, they did some exhaustive testing on the Wiesco brand. The Wiesco engineering folks kept fitting a piston tighter & tighter until the piston finally seized. I was told that the skirt clearance was very close to zero before the cylinder finally stuck. I prefer to purchase parts directly from the factory; conversations from the sales people get a little friendlier over time & information like this usually enters the discussion. Wiesco has come a long way since the early days & their JUNK cast pistons.
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Old 08-15-2015, 02:03:54 AM
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Photo Re: How it's Done 3-5

We still get an aluminum bore Briggs on occasion; They hone fine with a 280 grit stone & an oil flood. Most of the time we just sleeve them with a 1/16” wall liner & put them back to standard bore size.


A gentle heat to 500 deg. Being careful not to melt a fin


Measuring the cylinder


With a step machined at the bottom, the new sleeve drops in with a -.003” shrink fit.


Good as New

Last edited by John Tice; 08-15-2015 at 03:26:54 AM.
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Old 08-27-2015, 10:57:40 AM
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Not sure if this will be in the correct thread but here goes;

I have a 1957 Kellogg American air compressor that I want to rebuild, it's already apart.
Question #1 How do I find out what the original bore is? Looking at cleaning the bore and new rings etc.

I can't see any pictures?

Thank you
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Old 08-28-2015, 01:08:46 PM
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Thumbs up Re:Compressor skirt clearance

Most compressors & American made engines have bore diameters in standard increments; ie 3, 3- 1/2, 3-3/4 etc..

Look at the cylinder at TDC for a ridge in the bore; no ridge, no wear.

Next measure the skirt clearance of the piston; most times a set of feeler gauges will work.

Lastly is checking the rings for wear. I dont know how much end gap is necessary for a compressor but Im sure someone else will chime in for that.

For closer measurements, youll probably need to go to a machine shop who has the proper measuring tools.

You will probably need to re-ring the cylinder; also a de-glaze job with some kind of brush or ball hone.

JT
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  #31  
Old 08-30-2015, 04:00:41 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Interesting work!

I have a question about cylinder sleeves - how thin can a cast iron sleeve be and still work OK without cracking or breaking up? The reason I ask is I have a cast iron cylinder that has some deep rust pits in it - it probably needs to be sleeved or replaced outright. The cylinder is off of an Ingersoll Rand 3-R-36 compressor and is probably nearly impossible to find, as are oversized pistons for this engine. The original piston from the pitted cylinder is in good shape. (The 3-R-36 is a radial configuration engine driven compressor - three power cylinders interleaved with three compressor cylinders all sharing a common crank pin.) The real problem is the cylinder wall is already kind of thin - the bore is 3 1/8 inches and the smallest part of the OD (down by the case, below the fins) is 3 7/16 inches. If I bore the cylinder out for a standard 1/16 wall sleeve this leaves me with only 3/32 wall thickness at the base of the cylinder, which seems kind of thin, and I worry about the cylinder cracking apart under load. (The cylinder is bolted to the case around the base and has separate head bolts - it does not have through studs.) So one option is to use a thinner wall sleeve but I am not sure how thin I can go. LA Sleeve claims I can go to .050 wall thickness on the sleeve - is it possible to go any thinner than that? I looked into having the inside of the cylinder metal sprayed and rebored but all the places I contacted thought the pits, at ~ .025 thou, were too deep for that to work. My only other option is to turn an entire cylinder out of a cast iron blank. Thank you in advance for any thoughts you might have on this.
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  #32  
Old 08-30-2015, 07:17:46 PM
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Question Re: How thick of a sleeve

Since sleeve / liners are under compression of 1 kind or another; cracking & breaking isnt an issue. I dont use sleeves thinner than 1/16 The gentlemen from LA & I are on the same wave length. Heres the key; The ID of your new sleeve should be at least .100 ID undersized before you start.

When we resleeve a 2 stroke; I usually start with an ID around .150 smaller since we have to remove it again to machine the ports. You can do the math if youre purchasing an LA Sleeve, Dave can give you a hand on the thickness.

Id also recommend a step at the bottom like the Aluminum Briggs back a bit in the column. With a step at the bottom your press fit need not be more than .0005, a thou. How about some pictures of the cylinders so we can all understand your situation?

It seems like the original pistons would be fine to use over again as long as the skirt clearance is adjusted & the rings are gaped correctly

To sum it up; a very light press with a step at the bottom. You may be able to drop the .0005 shrink fit in with the cylinder heated to around 500deg F. If you decide to do the heating method; you should heat the cylinder & do an expansion test first.

If all of this seems a little confusing; Ill do the job for $150.00 per cylinder including the sleeve.
This would make a good story for this thread
JT
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Old 09-01-2015, 09:37:15 AM
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Pictures will be on their way - just need time to get to the shop and take them.

It is not really the sleeve I am worried about breaking, it is the cylinder barrel itself, as it's wall will be only around .090 thick at the base after being bored for the sleeve. Because the barrel is held down by bolts at the base and not studs, the iron barrel itself is under significant tension during combustion. The reason I was thinking of making the sleeve as thin as possible is so that less material would have to be bored out of the barrel, leaving it with a thicker wall. It would mean needing to turn down the OD of a standard sleeve, though. And maybe 090 inch is thick enough for the barrel wall - I just don't know.
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Old 09-01-2015, 07:40:23 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Beezer; maybe split the difference i.e. the sleeve & cylinder the same thickness. Maybe a flanged sleeve at the top would be a better choice. With a flange at the top or a step at the bottom the shrink fit might be closer to zero. The flange or step would hold the sleeve in place sandwich style. You were going to post a picture? Im not sure of what Id recommend without having the parts on my workbench. Do you have facilities to machine a flanged sleeve?

We use expanding mandrels to chuck thin sleeves





Call me any time till 9pm pacific 503-593-2908 JT www.smallenginemachineworks.com
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Old 09-02-2015, 11:11:02 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Managed to get a photo of the cylinder barrel, and one of the connecting rod arrangement just for grins. Not sure how I will proceed at this point - I guess I need to convince myself the barrel will still be strong enough after being bored out for a 1/16 wall sleeve.
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  #36  
Old 09-03-2015, 12:10:44 AM
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Well as an uneducated non-expert. Could the step at the bottom be tall and take into account the thin bottom part. If the rings do not go down that far no need to cut away anything.

Only time I ever saw a cylinder sleeved, it was an in frame sleeve in a diesel. Got an old guy to drive a few hundred miles to do it. Remember he had a can of white lead he used to lube the sleeve as he pressed it in. Had some kind of boring machine that bolted on top of the block. Guess if the deck was not true the new hole was not either. I am sure he knew what he was doing or the shop owner would not have called him in.

Good luck with your fix.
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  #37  
Old 09-03-2015, 12:40:49 AM
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Smile That's it

Akuna has a very good idea; if your cylinder is bored no further down than the rings at bdc the worn area could be sleeved without getting into the thin area.
Great idea
This is what we do to Subaru cylinders; the seam doesn't even show

The place where GREAT minds meet


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Old 09-03-2015, 12:58:56 AM
eddie bedwell eddie bedwell is offline
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Hi Team,
following on from Akuna's great suggestion would be to look into ending the sleeve level with the centre of the lower cooling fin--if possible--being very sure to have a nice smooth radiused corner in the barrel to lessen the likelihood of a stress raiser and resultant fatigue failure at the end of the bore cut. The sleeve would need to be radiused to suit for a seamless finish at the joint interfaces.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Eddie B.
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Old 09-03-2015, 08:37:17 AM
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Default Stepped cylinder

If we did this project; I would center the boring bar spindle below the resleeved area. When we bore the new sleeve & finish hone the cylinder the transition point wont show.
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Old 09-05-2015, 04:32:24 PM
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Photo Re: How it's Done 4-1

Sleeve 650 Triumph twin 4-1

This particular How its Done could be most any type of cast iron cylinder. We sleeve a number of the British twin cylinders each year & this particular cylinder fits right in with our specialty.
This cylinder is a rather simple installation; Im machining & press fitting straight 1/16 wall sleeves to bring this cylinder back to standard bore. This job could fit most any other iron cylinder that you could own.





I sort thru our inventory of sleeve castings & pick out a couple which will machine to our requirements. Another reason that this is an easy installation is because the twin cylinders fit nicely into our boring stand multi cylinder slots.


This cylinder clamps nicely beneath the boring stand

For those of you who are familiar with green sand castings, you can see the horizontal parting line in the casting.
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