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Re: How it's Done 3-5


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  #41  
Old 09-05-2015, 05:07:30 PM
beezerbill beezerbill is offline
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Interesting suggestion - sleeving only the "combustion part" of the cylinder. I will look into this further and see how far down the sleeve would need to go so that the rings don't have transition from the sleeved part to the original bore, and if the cylinder wall is thick enough there.

I apologize in advance for any delays in responding - this is the time of year we are madly putting up hay for the horses. We need to get about 14 tons in before the snow flies (usually in October around here), all of it down a mile of jeep trail which includes about 200 yards of 30% grade.

I am all too familiar with British twins. A friend of mine had a 650 Triumph that never ran real great and always burned oil. We took it apart and found the cylinder bores were about .015 inch closer together at the top of the cylinder than they were at the bottom. Had it rebored and it worked great after that.
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Old 09-05-2015, 06:12:14 PM
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Photo 650 Triumph 4-2

650 Triumph 4-2
I ordinarily machine my new liners around .100” small on the ID so they are a little stiffer to work with. Many people get all in a tizzy because we don’t always use centripetal poured sleeve castings. As long as the castings are sound & solid the type of pour is rather insignificant.

After the ID is machined it’s chucked on an expanding mandrel for the OD finishing.


While the OD is being finished the bottom part of the new liner is machined slightly smaller; this small amount allows the new liner to fit squarely into the bore before we start the press fit. With this particular liner a +.002” squeeze works out well.


The sleeves are pressed in place with material sticking out of each end to allow for trimming.

The tops & bottoms are chucked on an expanding mandrel for trimming the tops & bottoms





For you folks who aren’t familiar with lathe operations; the lathe is in back gears running at less than 100RPM’s for the offset turning.

Last edited by John Tice; 09-06-2015 at 02:11:24 AM.
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Old 09-05-2015, 06:34:02 PM
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Default 650 Triumph 4-3

The finish bore is measured with a dial bore gage. This tool is on the net for less than $75.00; a good addition to your tool box.


The cylinder base bevel is cut on the bottom of the new sleeve.


After the finish bore is completed the cylinder moves on to the Sunnen rod hone for finish sizing to skirt clearance. Skirt clearance is .0035” for the Triumph 650 with the supplied brand of pistons. As usual with the heavy cylinders we hone hanging from the ceiling to reduce the load on the mandrels & my back.


The top view of the finished sleeve installation


If there are any questions & comments, please sound off; we can all learn together from this thread. If you’ve got any ideas for different installations let me know; realizing that people won’t send a 1 ton single across country to have us work on it.

Stay tuned

"Old Dog" John Tice

Call me any time 24/7 till 9pm Pacific 503-593-2908
www.smallenginemachineworks.ccom

The photos have been reduced from the last entry but still large enough for good viewing. Readers in this column in another site insisted on larger pictures for a closer look. I’m still having problems with some of them.

---------- Post added at 03:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:23 PM ----------

It’s always advisable for the finish bore; Bore the cylinder upside down insuring that the bore is square with the crankshaft
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Old 09-20-2015, 10:58:58 PM
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Question How it's Done 5-1 CR500 Honda Re-Sleeve

Sleeving a 2 stroke single cylinder

This time we’ll sleeve a CR500 Honda cylinder. Most loop scavenged single cylinder engines are about the same except for the fuel intake. Piston port, Rotary valve and mostly now days with a Reed valve.
The cylinders in the last 40 years or so have mostly had a cast in iron cylinder sleeve. The last 20 years the Nikasil plated cylinders started another large change over.
I believe plated cylinders showed up partly because of a large cost savings.

This is the way that most of the cylinders show up for repairs

Most cylinders are simply just bored out; other cylinders have been dropped or broken damaged in one way or another.
This jug has a little of both problems.


When we first start boring the object is to remove all of the old or damaged iron liner. Many of the other pre ported cylinder liners a thin so the old iron is left intact. This thin sleeve is the easy way out; we prefer to remove everything so our new sleeve is quite a bit thicker than others supplied. I also insert extra ribs in the intake area to make the new cylinder easier to hone & better support the new standard bore piston.


The bottom side of the cylinder has a flared hour glass shape to keep it from slipping. We weld all of this area up & re-machine it square & straight.






Next, we turn the cylinder over & continue to remove the rest of the iron liner
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Old 09-20-2015, 11:42:45 PM
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Smile How it's Done 5-2 CR500 Honda Re-Sleeve

After the cylinder is finish machined, it’s time to start cutting on the new sleeve.

The cylinder ID is precisely honed for the new shrink fit


The sleeve is sawed off of the blank casting

The ID & OD are machined for proper fits. The ID is bored .100” small to make sure that it won’t crush while cutting the ports.


Concentricity is maintained by machining the OD while the cylinder is mounted on an expanding mandrel




This sleeve has a -.004” squeeze fit because of the large diameter
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  #46  
Old 09-21-2015, 12:15:05 AM
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Smile How it's Done 5-3 sleeving Honda SC500 cylinder


After the new sleeve is blanked out; The cylinder is heated to 500 deg. & the blank sleeve is dropped in place.

The heated parts are immersed in the pale of nitric acid for 15 to 20 minutes.
After things have cooled off; the cylinder is rinsed, re-heated & the etched sleeve falls out.






We begin machining the ports in the new sleeve

We have the perfect road map for cutting the new ports
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  #47  
Old 09-21-2015, 12:38:34 AM
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Smile How it's Done 5-4 sleeving Honda SC500 cylinder


I’ve been machining ports for many years & each job presents new challenges.






It takes about 1-2 hours to cut & polish the ports on a job like this one. My charges are quite reasonable since I’m retired & love my work.

If you look at the ports in the intake area LS, you can see the additional vertical & horizontal ports which are cut giving extra piston support.



With the new sleeve completed; We re-heat the cylinder to 500deg. again & drop it in place. The whole part is placed under light compression while the cylinder cools to room temperature.

After cooling; the top & bottom of the cylinder are trimmed to the proper height. The cylinder is lastly bored & honed to standard bore size.


Stay tuned
Please chime in with your questions.
Call me any time 503-593-2908
John Tice “Old Dog” www.smallenginemachineworks.com

Last edited by John Tice; 09-21-2015 at 12:55:40 AM.
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Old 09-22-2015, 06:11:39 PM
Glenn Ayers Glenn Ayers is offline
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Quote:
Originally Posted by beezerbill View Post
Managed to get a photo of the cylinder barrel, and one of the connecting rod arrangement just for grins. Not sure how I will proceed at this point - I guess I need to convince myself the barrel will still be strong enough after being bored out for a 1/16 wall sleeve.
BeeserBill..
I can't tell from the picture .... but it looks like the "Head Bolts" ... MAY line up with the lower "Jug Bolts" ???
What do you .. or the other talented gents here .. think of drilling thru the threaded head stud holes .. on down thru each fin .. & using long studs to hold the Head AND the Jug on ? Maybe every other bolt be a Head/Jug bolt ? Looks like 6 bolts ... so three just holding Jug to Block ... three holding Jug AND Head to Block ... three just holding Head ???
This MAY be a way to keep the compression from blowing the sleeved / thin Jug off ?
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  #49  
Old 09-22-2015, 06:40:32 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

I see 8 bolts on the bottom & 6 on the top?
JT
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Old 09-23-2015, 09:51:12 AM
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

If I were to re-engineer the thing from the ground up I might do something like that. Actually the cylinder barrel and head on some BSA singles are held on that way - the head on my Gold Star is held on with four bolts that come up underneath the head and four studs that similarly come up from the inside of the crankcase, pass through holes in the cylinder fins, and screw in underneath the head. Kind of a bizarre way to do it but it works.

What I decided to do with the cylinder in question is sleeve it the "ordinary" way with as thin a sleeve as is convenient. My big fear was the barrel itself failing, leading to a catastrophic failure of the whole engine, with the top of the broken cylinder flying off, a flailing rod and piston beating the case apart, the rod getting bent up and caught down inside the case where it would proceed to wreck the crank and other rods, and all kinds of other gruesome things. But any failure might not be that bad - if the barrel did crack the sleeve would kind of hold it together - the head end of the barrel would lift enough that the valves would stay closed so that cylinder would stop firing, and I would hear something off and have time to shut the engine down. Anyway it will be a while until I get to this thing...
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Old 10-03-2015, 10:23:44 PM
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Photo Sleeving Mac Titan cylinders

Around a year ago we received a couple of Mac Titan cylinders to repair. (WW2 Vintage) They sat around for quite some time until I figured out how to complete the project.



These are cross scavenged cylinders


This 2 stroke design hung on in the outboard motor industry longer than most. The cylinders stack better than loop scavenged designs.


4 & 6 cylinder Mercury cross scavenged outboard blocks

The base gasket surfaces were bunged up from removing the cylinders with a screw driver.

If you look carefully at the base gasket surface, you can see the buggered area where a screw driver was used for a chisel.

Stay tuned

Last edited by John Tice; 10-04-2015 at 09:44:15 AM.
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Old 10-03-2015, 10:40:00 PM
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Photo Sleeving Mac Titan cylinders

There were some different challenges in this project

1. Clean up the base gasket surfaces. The problem with this was; how to chuck the cylinder in the lathe since the cylinder head is non removable. We are unable to mount the cylinders on an expanding mandrel the customary way.



We welded on a set of extended fingers on our 3 jaw chuck. After a light truing cut on the new fingers we were able to slide the cylinders on.

The buggered up gasket surfaces were TIG welded & carefully trimmed. This needed to be done first since I needed a true square platform for boring for the new sleeve.

[/URL]



2. Sleeve each cylinder to fit the original pistons since there are no oversizes available.


There is usually always a challenge involved in this custom work. The sleeve is longer than most is these cylinders. The sleeves stick up so far in the boring table that we can’t use a dial bore gage. Barely enough room for a telescoping gage. During the finish bore the cylinders were spaced away from the boring table far enough to allow use of the dial bore gage.

Machining the blank sleeves is done in the usual way. Bore the ID & mount the sleeve on a mandrel.





Stay tuned

Last edited by John Tice; 10-04-2015 at 09:57:49 AM.
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Old 10-03-2015, 10:46:04 PM
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Photo Sleeving Mac Titan cylinders





This is a view of the sleeve when we were beveling the inside of the sleeve at TDC. It’s necessary to relieve the sleeve here because there is difficulty in honing the bottom of the blind bore cylinder.
We also needed a scosh more room at the bottom for the boring bar spindle to avoid a collision

The sleeves were machined with a -.001” interruption & pressed in cold.



Cutting the exhaust ports was easy; a plunge cut with a center cut end mill easily did the trick.


Cutting the transfers was another storey. I used a 1/16” smaller drill bit & went thru the exhaust ports favoring the lower side of the cylinder. This procedure tended to give the cylinder some Blow Down timing.


While boring the cylinder, I ran into another problem; how to get rid of the cutting chips.


Sticking a small magnet into the spark plug hole a number of times pulled all of the chips out with no problems.


Stay tuned

Last edited by John Tice; 10-04-2015 at 08:07:36 PM.
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Old 10-03-2015, 10:55:13 PM
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Photo Sleeving Mac Titan cylinders

3. Plug the area where the combustion chamber has a hole. The combustion chamber hole appeared when I noticed bent fin area; the cylinder was torqued down too tight.

This problem turned out to be the most difficult one to repair. The hole needed to be plugged & the fins needed enough support so the problem won’t happen again






After after the hole was welded shut, we needed to put the corner back together






The last of the repair was welding the fins together so this cylinder won’t break again

Stay tuned

Last edited by John Tice; 10-04-2015 at 02:59:09 PM.
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Old 10-04-2015, 03:13:29 PM
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Photo Sleeving Mac Titan cylinders

Doing a blind bore is always a bit more complicated. We need to use an offset tool in the boring bar so it will go all the way to the bottom of the cylinder.


In this view; you can see were the cylinder has been crushed from a drop or from tightening a head bolt too tight

We also need to set up the hone so it will also go all the way to the bottom of the cylinder. Sunnen has the answer to most honing problems. With a hard 3 point con rod hone mandrel; the stones & the wear shoe on the other side are moved to the end of the mandrel.





We aren’t using a hand held Egg Beater type of mandrel on this kind of cylinder.
It takes a long time to accumulate this special tooling to do this precision work. In my retirement future this equipment could be available at a good price. Anyone out there interested, send me a PM or give me a call?


The mandrel works well; the skirt clearance is +.004” all the way to the bottom

In our small engine machine shop; we specialize only in cylinder repairs. This enables us to focus on our machinery line up. The hone equipment is one of the most important tools.
Along with the standard hand held hone which all engine shops use; we have the Sunnen horizontal con rod hone & our power vertical hone.

The finished pair of cylinders were quite a project


The finished cylinders turned out nicely. If we do another pair like these, the next job won’t take nearly as long.

Any Questions?
JT www.smallenginemachineworks.com 503-593-2908

Last edited by John Tice; 10-04-2015 at 08:19:21 PM.
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  #56  
Old 10-24-2015, 02:59:29 PM
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Photo Cylinder honing 101

www.nwsleeve.com & www.smallenginemachineworks.com have been turning specialty cylinder sleeves since 1971. Nowadays we only do full line custom cylinder boring & sleeving, 1 at a time. “No Plating”
Enjoy the thread & get involved

The object for the thread (How it’s Done) is to educate & encourage people to become involved in the machine shop business. Every couple of weeks or so there will be a new entry showing & explaining how cycle & small engine machine work is properly done. Everyone’s input will be invited for questions & answers.
Now days times are turning around again; plated cylinders are wearing out all over the place. With PMI inc. leading the way with an assortment of various brands of pistons. Performance Motorsports International is the parent company for Wiesco (My favorite) J.E. & Pro-X lines of pistons.

With cylinder sleeves available for almost any engine; it’s important for the enthusiast to have a basic knowledge of the applications & tools used for installing & maintaining a cylinder with an IRON liner.
Cylinder sleeves are NOT made from STEEL. It was pointed out in E2S that there are steel cylinders, mostly in the aircraft industry. Lets not get off on a tangent.

One of the simplest tools used in cylinder maintenance is the hone. Within this there is Glaze breaking & there is genuine cylinder honing. Glaze breaking is what it says & really has nothing to do with honing.
When you pull the top end for a new set of rings, you will be putting a cross hatch in the bore to aid in the new ring break in.
Over the years one of the most popular tools is a brake cylinder hone. I call this tool an “Egg Beater”. The egg beater has just about ZERO ability to do any sizing. They are also extremely good at snagging up in the bottoms of 2 stroke cylinders. They will however put a cross hatch in a 4 stroke bore.

The next & one of the oldest types of tool is a Ball Hone. Ball hones are very good in 2 strokes because they are also useful in champhering 2 stroke ports.

The third one which is my favorite is a brush hone. The beauty of the brush hone is as it wears down it can be used on smaller bores. After the shop has finished a bore; the ball & brush hones are also handy for removing the razor sharp edge at the top of the cylinder.

All of the above are capable of laying a good 45deg. cross hatch. The real reason for a cross hatch while precision honing; This pattern while stroking the hone guarantees uniform stone contact from end to end which produces precision bore dimensions. Aiding in a good ring break in is an added bonus.
Before you run your cylinder over to the shop to fit your new shiny $150.00 piston; Make sure that you know the qualifications of the guy who’s going to do your work.



Left Ball hone --- Center precision AMCO cylinder hone --- Right a brake cylinder hone
Of the three, only the AMCO hone is capable of precision cylinder sizing.




A good set of brush hones; although rather expensive, they last & last





The 1500 Lisle cylinder hone
The Lisle hone is best used on 4 stroke cylinders. The stones on this brand are lightly glued in place & have a tendency to snag & break off in 2 strokes.




Ask any builder in any trade; The Sunnen hone is the Best. Quality tools have a cost; my first used hand Sunnen hone cost me $165.00. We recently purchased a heavy duty model for over $500.00. You don’t find this kind of quality tool at HF. If you need a quality Sunnen supplier; try www.cavcosales.com . CAVCO has been my faithful Sunnen tool place for years; take a look at their web site.

That about covers the hand held cylinder hones; the next step is accumulating a good set of measuring tools.

If you are serious about your work; a good set of quality measuring tools is a must. Some folks will only purchase the best off the Snap On truck. Times have changed with the internet; quality tools are available from the internet on line. After a purchase it’s determined that the tool isn’t good enough; chuck it & find another. As with any retail trade, we tend to favor the supplier who offers the best service, quality & on time. After a while, we learn who we wish to do business with. You will notice that I didn’t use the word CHEAP. I made the statement over at E2S; “You get what you pay for”. You wouldn’t believe the fire storm of comments that showed up.




Operating your hone is easy to learn if you spend some time watching on Utube. There are plenty of examples, good & bad so you need to sort them out

For the pro along comes the power hone; again the Sunnen connecting rod hone is the best first choice.
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Old 10-24-2015, 03:23:17 PM
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Photo Cylinder honing 101

With hand honing with the electric drill the cylinder is held down in some fashion; With this power hone it’s a hands on grab it & go situation. Many an operator has slashed a finger or two as the mandrel grabs & the cylinder spins.



This is a 125 cylinder & 175 Blaster which are mounted on a 3 point long stone mandrels. With this mandrel arraignment the cylinder is honed Round & Straight. This is the only hone set up which guarantees straight cylinder sizing.




If you’ve been around a Sunnen, you’re familiar of how they work. Any shop that’s been using this machine will have more invested in the tooling than the machine is worth.


This is a view of a 700 Suzuki with a 102mm bore, the largest we’ve seen yet in our shop. Notice the double stone set on this mandrel; this particular stone set is designed for sizing bores which are splined. The mandrel is excellent for honing large bore 2 stroke cylinders.

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Old 10-24-2015, 03:35:54 PM
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Photo Cylinder honing 101


A Sunnen power stroker which we had in our old location
Lastly in our shop is a vertical power stroker hone. It’s taken me around 6 months to get this machine up & running.

This is me after 50 years in the shop. This is a wonderful machine; as Clint says, “we must realize our limitations”. The machine is only as good as the head which is fitted.


As usual I fit a Sunnen hone head to the vertical machine; Quicker & much faster adjustments

This machine runs from 25mm – 120mm bore diameter

Honda 50


700 Quad



Any questions, we all learn together. This is the first “How it’s Done” for the 3 wheeler. If any of you folks have an idea of a machine shop project, let us know. If you are also a machinist of wannabe with a project, post it & share it with the rest of the readers. We all learn together.

Stay tuned

My experience has only come from a high school education, our shop & the family business. Anyone can be successful at small business if; you are willing to Bust Your Ass for a lifetime. I know; I’m 67 & plan on working till I drop.

JT www.smallenginemacineworks.com www.NWSleeve.com

Call me most any time 503-593-2908
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Old 12-05-2015, 11:11:05 PM
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Photo Measure your skit clearance

This thread may be old hat to most of you but I see over & over every month; how do I MEASURE MY PISTON CLEARANCE? This same thread goes into the 3 forums that contain my columns.
Now days imported measuring tools are so inexpensive that there’s no reason for a good mechanic not to include them in their tool kit.

First is a set of micrometers; as with the bore gauge, EBay is a good place to shop. A set from 0” – 6” is the best choice.


Over the years I’ve acquired many types of micrometers

It seems like everybody has a technique for measuring pistons. I like to start at the bottom of the piston 90deg to the wrist pin. Gently tighten the mandrel until a very light resistance is felt; next I wiggle the mic while loosening & tightening up to the wrist pin centerline. It’s fairly easy to determine the largest diameter. Some pistons have a belly in the bottom about 1/3 of the way up. Always do this 2 or 3 times for each piston & write the sizes down on a scratch pad.



Write all of your dimensions down to help avoid any mistakes





Measuring the ID of the bore is just as tricky as the piston dimensions; Telescoping gauges are handy to use at times as also the dependable yet clumsy inside micrometer. The depth micrometer has value measuring flange dimensions.



As with most tools several tries with a telescoping are required to get a final dimension.

Many times the mechanic can slip in a snap gauge where a dial bore gauge won’t fit


Seldom is there a place for a caliper whether it be digital or dial

These tools are easy to read a bad dimension
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Old 12-05-2015, 11:14:02 PM
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Photo Measure your skit clearance

A good dial bore gauge

I just picked up another for shop #2 for a whole $44.00.


Setting the dial gauge requires rocking the micrometer in different directions several times to make sure that the smallest dimension is attained.


Once the final dimension is attained, we simply rotate the dial to a zero setting


Digital dial gauges are a real PAIN

Extremely difficult to set to zero.


Dial gauges are tricky to fit into a cylinder while mounted in the cylinder boring stand.


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