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Re: How it's Done 3-5


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  #61  
Old 12-05-2015, 11:15:31 PM
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Photo Measure your skit clearance



Calculating the skirt clearance is fairly easy; The bore diameter minus the piston diameter. When the forged pistons first came out, they needed to be fit fairly loose. Now dayís forged pistons are fit as tight as the cast models. The operation of fitting pistons gets to be a routine operation in our shop. Mainly; there is NEVER a reason or excuse to make any mistakes in the piston fit. Itís best to do this close & final work without any interruptions.

There are seldom any questions about any of the threads?
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Turning Custom Cylinder Sleeves Since 1971
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Old 12-06-2015, 11:23:49 AM
beezerbill beezerbill is offline
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

One question I have had for a while - on making aluminum pistons out of billet. Occasionally I come up with a need for an oddball piston - not necessarily in an extreme situation but more likely on an antique or perhaps just old engine. I have the ability to make the piston (round, not cam-ground) by turning the OD and CNC milling the inside. But what I am clueless about is what alloy to make pistons out of, and mostly where to obtain it? I would be looking for round bar stock, not ingots, as I would want to machine the pistons out of stock and not cast them. Thanks in advance for any direction you could give me.
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Old 12-06-2015, 12:59:54 PM
J.B. Castagnos J.B. Castagnos is offline
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

High silicon content reduces expansion, if you're running a long piston in an old motor you can increase clearance, it won't be as critical. Below is a site with alloys and properties, I believe page 17 talks about pistons. I had some cast, don't remember the alloy but it had to be heat treated and aged, without aging they remained gummy.

http://european-aluminium.eu/talat/lectures/1501.pdf
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  #64  
Old 12-06-2015, 07:32:56 PM
beezerbill beezerbill is offline
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

J. B. - Thanks! I just had a chance to skim it but it is definitely something I find interesting and useful!
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Old 12-06-2015, 11:22:13 PM
Fifty7ChevyNut Fifty7ChevyNut is offline
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

have you ever bored a briggs model P/PB or Motorwheel? they are an unusual blind cylinder.

would love to come keep your shop swept for a week just to learn. sounds good and dirty, maybe even a little greasy.

was wondering how they cut the ports into a cylinder for a two cycle.

i have always wanted to build some briggs engines, using the same concepts as building SBC. 400 crank, 350 block ending up with a 383. i believe that is hiow they came up with the 302, 305, 307 factory chevys.

would also like to build an old cast iron briggs to spin as fast or faster than the new aluminum engines. add rod bearings.

don the nut
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  #66  
Old 12-09-2015, 09:46:42 AM
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Iíd need a picture of the Briggs cylinder. Keep watching this thread & you will learn how the porting is done. Look back a page or two.

John Tice
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  #67  
Old 12-09-2015, 01:03:52 PM
akuna akuna is offline
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

As to making pistons. I found that The Home Shop Machinist has books for sale and one of them is on how to make replacement pistons. Have no idea what is in it.
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Old 12-11-2015, 07:26:53 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Some years ago; I had a Van Norman #101 piston turning machine. I should have had my head examined for selling it.
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Old 12-21-2015, 12:00:19 AM
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

How itís done for December; no specific projects were chosen for the thread this time. Instead we took random pictures thru the last couple of weeks. Iíll explain a few of them as they seem interesting.


This is a picture of an old cast iron Briggs & Stratton cylinder. Iíve got one of our Kwik-Way model FW machines in shop #2, a standard heavy duty boring stand is used. The slot in the stand is over 4Ē wide so an adaptor plate is needed for the smaller sized cylinders.


We are getting a number of 4 stroke cylinders in to sleeve as the plating wears out. As usual many times oversized pistons arenít available. I always tell the customer that a new sleeve many times isnít the best idea with no oversizes.


This is a 200cc Yamaha cylinder with 5 exhaust ports & a very confusing Power Valve set up. The different kinds of power valves tend to make me crazy attempting to figure them out. We require a power valve along with the cylinder so we can make sure that everything functions properly.


A250 KX cylinder ready for the new sleeve installation


The standard cylinder mount on the boring bar table
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Old 12-21-2015, 12:05:21 AM
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Trimming the sleeve flush with the top of the cylinder



All of the ports are prepolished before the new sleeve is installed


The port angles are carefully studied before we cut the new ones. Beside accurately locating the outside of the ports, the inside’s must also be considered.


A CR250 cylinder waiting for a new sleeve


The plating has been stripped out of the bore. The Power Valve is put in place to consider the final fit & function

Last edited by John Tice; 12-21-2015 at 07:56:20 PM.
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Old 12-21-2015, 12:09:05 AM
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A cylinder mounted on the vertical hone for some finish sizing work


For the final fitting; especially on a 2 stroke cylinder, the Sunnen con rod horizontal machine is used


Final heating to 500deg. time to install the new sleeve. You will notice me sitting in my walker chair; with a bad back & a dose of MS Iím stuck with crutches 24/7. As ďClint saysĒ Adapt, Improvise & Overcome.


Final measurements before removing the sleeve from a mandrel


After the new sleeve is installed, itís held in place with a light press while it cools off.

This about ends this batch of pictures, please ask if youíve got any questions. Our work is fairly repetitive installing & turning cylinder sleeves day after day. Each job is a special project & seldom do things get boring. LOL

John Tice
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  #72  
Old 12-21-2015, 12:27:21 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Excellent! Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge.
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  #73  
Old 12-25-2015, 04:32:12 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Quote:
Originally Posted by beezerbill View Post
One question I have had for a while - on making aluminum pistons out of billet. Occasionally I come up with a need for an oddball piston - not necessarily in an extreme situation but more likely on an antique or perhaps just old engine. I have the ability to make the piston (round, not cam-ground) by turning the OD and CNC milling the inside. But what I am clueless about is what alloy to make pistons out of, and mostly where to obtain it? I would be looking for round bar stock, not ingots, as I would want to machine the pistons out of stock and not cast them. Thanks in advance for any direction you could give me.
There is no such thing as "billet". "Billet describes an object, not a material. Billets are produced in an intermediate step in metals production. They are not a finished product. The metal has no grain structure and is near unmachinable because it is gummy. In the case of aluminum the billets are extruded into bars with the desired properties. Barstock is usually 6000, 7000, or 2000 series alloys. You have to calculate the expansion for the alloy you are using and will likely be a bit noisy until warmed up. The most common round bars are going to be 6061 or 6063.
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Old 12-25-2015, 08:21:29 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Hmmm...Googling "billet pistons" turns up about a zillion hits. And I used the word "billet" due to that word's overwhelming prevalence in the aftermarket piston world - perhaps I should have used the words "wrought bar."

In any case, it appears two alloys used for machining pistons are 2618, and 4032. 4032 is a high silicon, low expansion alloy, and I am not sure what 2618 is. But after a brief check of the thermal and mechanical properties of various aluminum alloys I decided I might just use 6061 T6 on a trial basis, based on how common it is, and just add a little extra skirt clearance. Probably try it on an engine I don't care about too much and run the crap out of it and see how it fares. If it is not a complete disaster I would then try to find a more suitable alloy for engines I care about. Wish me luck!

Last edited by beezerbill; 12-25-2015 at 08:31:45 PM. Reason: shorten
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Old 12-25-2015, 09:06:02 PM
Jake Jacobs Jake Jacobs is online now
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

What would be the min finished wall thickness of a sleeve you would recommend using in a pierce arrow straight 8 ? This engine has about a 6.4 to one compression ratio, 3.5 inch standard bore, 4 inch stroke. thanks for your help.
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  #76  
Old 12-28-2015, 10:26:34 AM
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Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

A 1/16Ē wall sleeve is the thinnest we use; since our casting thicknesses & supply is mostly unlimited, I usually start with an 1/8Ē wall sleeve. After the finish bore we end up with a 1/16Ē wall liner. The thicker wall starting thickness is easier to work with.
Sometimes itís easier to trim the OD of a thicker sleeve than honing more on the inside of the block

John Tice

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Old 12-28-2015, 12:22:16 PM
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Photo Progress on the Vertical Hone

finally figured out how to make this con founded vertical machine work properly. Iím supposed to be out in shop #2 boring cylinders this weekend BUT itís ZERO degrees outside & TOO cold to work. A few hours to do some writing about some success with the not so new vertical hone.

For a lifetime Iíve been around & working with Sunnen connecting rod hones. One of the simple things to keep the stones true on the Sunnen machine is to simply flip the cylinder around from time to time working it from the other end. Since I work while sitting down, I hang the cylinders from the ceiling with a dead dear hoist & bungee cords. This may sound silly but it works great for heavy cylinders & multi cylinders.



A twin cylinder outboard motor block, notice the 4 bungee cords



Simple & effective



Illustrated is a floor model machine & a bench top Sunnen machine. They all function the same & take the same tooling.



This setup has a stop mounted on the mandrel to limit the stroke length
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  #78  
Old 12-28-2015, 12:30:17 PM
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Default Progress on the Vertical Hone


For honing all larger bore cylinders; 2-1/2Ē & up, either honing machine. We use the double stone tooling which was designed for splined cylinders.





Back to the Vertical machine; sizing a 2 stroke bore is more problematic than cylinders without any ports. Since the end of the cylinder with the majority of the ports has less of a surface area, the hone head removes the material much quicker than the other end. Also for some reason; Iíve not figured this out yet. While clamped the hone seems to remove material faster from the top than the bottom. These arenít large numbers, just enough to be a pain in the ď ď.

I have found that clamping a 2 stroke cylinder right side up causes the hone to work the most accurately.

This is a 71 Kawasaki F5 350cc rotary valve cylinder that we are replacing the sleeve & returning to standard bore.


With a vertical hone we are unable to flip the cylinder; instead with a vertical machine the operator dwells on any end which is tending to hone a little small. This procedure works but not nearly as well as flipping.

ON UTUBE; itís amazing what you can learn & what may seem foolish to try. On another video it was mentioned that the larger more sophisticated machines used an ammeter to show the power usage. BINGO;



Since we were unable to determine how much & when the cutting process is finished. I went to a local hardware store & found a clip on ammeter which answers my questions. When the tension adjustment on the hone head is increased, the amp load of the drive motor also increases. When the hone head is finished cutting, the amp load drops back to the no load setting. Iím also finding that the stock removable amount is very consistent. Itís easy to set the hone head tension & remove a specific amount of the bore diameter.
After almost a year or so we finally have a machine which really works. We still must set the skirt clearance on the Sunnen machine.

John Tice
503-593-2908 Alternate 541-508-3944
www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com
Turning Custom Cylinder Sleeves Since 1971
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  #79  
Old 01-24-2016, 04:59:06 PM
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Question Sleeve or Plate

Very good question; Heli coils are rolled from an alloy of stainless steel. Fortunately, Nitric acid has NO EFFICT on metal alloys which contain chrome & nickel. On occasion you will hear the term alloy 18 & 8, which stands for 18% chrome & 8% nickel which is a standard alloy of 300 series stainless steel. Alloy 303 is the free machining style of stainless & 316 is a standard high strength stainless alloy.



We have been discussing how plated & iron lined cylinders wear & dissipate combustion heat. I believe there is little difference in heat dissipation between a plated cylinder & a tight fitting sleeve. Common sense would make us believe that the plated cylinder does move the heat around more efficiently; therefore when a sleeve is installed we always give the piston a +.0005Ē extra skirt clearance, thatís all. Iím sure that an irate customer would let us know if there was a problem.
I have however done more than a few jobs over because somebody else made an improper fit.


This cylinder was sent to us for repair; one of the poorest fits weíve seen
Anyone who sends out their cylinder work had better well know & trust their machinist.

In the 2-stroke arena it is customary for the European engine manufacturers to shrink fit their cylinder liners/sleeves, CZ,Montessa,AJS, Husky & Bultaco.
Of the 2stroke Japanese manufacturers, the RD350 & 250 Yamaha twins are about the only cylinders which Iíve found with shrink fit liners. These cylinders are fit a little too loose to fit my satisfaction. When I reline a Yamaha twin the shrink fit is +.005Ē.
The 4-stroke Japanese engines; the cylinders have most always had shrink fit cylinder liners.


This is a picture of the inside of an RD350 Yamaha cylinder before the new sleeve is installed. With certain models of this particular engine the rear transfer ports must be re-contoured to get a proper fuel flow. As can be seen in this view, only the top of the cylinder will have a tight fit around the new sleeve.

In around 1973 or so Kawasaki started to produce cylinders with plated bores. It took some time for the other manufacturers to come on board. By the time water coolers were prevalent most all Japanese engines had plated cylinders.


This is a picture of a DT-175 Yamaha which has been bored for a new sleeve.


KT-100 Yamaha Kart engine cylinder
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Old 01-24-2016, 05:03:09 PM
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Question Sleeve or Plate con't


A non slip ring in a 360 Husky


175cc KTM cylinder with many gripping rings


The 175cc KTM cylinder was marked & pressed in cold


There are some Evenrude cylinders which had a cylinder which is highly impregnated with silicon. These cylinders ave a high wear rate.
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