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Fuels and Alternative Fuels Materials or substances that can be used as a fuel, waste oils, vegetable oils or animal fats, which can be used alone, or blended with fossil fuels.

Fuels and Alternative Fuels

E15 in Newer Cars


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  #1  
Old 01-11-2019, 05:41:36 PM
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John Hamilton John Hamilton is offline
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Default E15 in Newer Cars

The owners manuals for my 2010 Mustang GT and my wife's 2013 GMC Atria both say one tank of E15 voids the warranty. If E15 is legalized what do we do? Go to the airport and lie?
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:54:37 PM
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Default Re: E15 in newer cars

E15 has been one of the most heavily tested fuels of all time. I have tried in in all my on road vehicles, including a 1995 Honda motorcycle with more than 110,000 miles.
1. It won't hurt your engine
2. E15 didn't exist when your manuals were written, so I doubt that it specifically calls out E15
3. Those cars are far out of warranty anyway.
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:49:50 PM
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Default Re: E15 in newer cars

His cars may be far out of warrenty but who does that leave to pay for the repairs due to the piss poor fuel?
I only hope they have to mark the pump well enough that i don't get it by mistake.
I wish it would go back to common sense, corn squeezin's for drankin', dino squeezin's for burnin'.
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:30:28 PM
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Default Re: E15 in newer cars

The gasoline part is the piss poor fuel. 83-84 octane swill. The ethanol is used to get the octane up and make it a legal and usable fuel.
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Old 01-11-2019, 11:29:56 PM
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Default Re: E15 in newer cars

yea and its great for gumming up anything with a carb on it......
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Old 01-12-2019, 12:47:46 PM
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Default Re: E15 in newer cars

Ethanol is an ok fuel when it is fresh but here in Minnesota in a warm muggy summer it goes bad fast. When refining gasoline the finished product is a low octane fuel that won't burn very well so additives are added to boost the octane to usually around 89-90. The old additives worked great and the fuel usually lasted more than a couple weeks. But the powers that be decided it was killing us and we had to start burning ethanol instead. Now with ethanol as an additive there is one major flaw. Ethanol attracts moisture like a sponge!! So if there is any humidity it will phase separate very fast. You end up with a mixture of ethanol/water on the bottom and low octane fuel floating on top. This is why it is so corrosive. Add to this, ethanol uses more energy to produce than it creates. And the same goes with the money. (if it wasn't for the govt. subsidies there would be no ethanol) So it costs more to make than its worth, you have to burn large amounts of natural gas and use an unbelievable amount of water to make it, and it really is not a good fuel. Only our government would promote it!!
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Old 01-12-2019, 03:53:18 PM
Andrew Mackey Andrew Mackey is offline
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Angry Re: E15 in newer cars

The gas companies cannot stop making E-10. As the laws are written, E-15 MUST not be used in off road vehicles, small engines (mowers weed wackers etc), and vehicles that are older than a certain date. YES - E-15 WILL damage older vehicles, even those made to accept E-10!I am certain that this alcoholixed fuel fiasco will end up ruining even more engines than E-10 has already. The government is not monitoring what goes into your fuel - you can't really call it gasoline any more.

It is bad enough that my son, personally has tested supposed E-10 fuel, straight from the pump, and found up to 27% alky in it! if E-10 is that bad, just think of what E-15 will be??? Not only that, who do you think is going to watch what fuel is going into your tanks? By law it will be illegal to dispense E-15 to small engines and off road machines (tractors, 4 wheelers etc), but who is to say what the gas companies will try? Not only will E-15 make for damage to older cars, you will also see another drop in fuel economy. Alcohol has less BTUs than gas. You are already seeing up to a 20% drop in fuel milage due to E-10. You can expect another 5 to 10% drop, when you buy E-15. You lose about 10% power due to the alky in E-10. Therefore, you have to use more throttle to maintain speed and power. That uses more fuel, so you end up with a net loss of about 20 for E-10. For E-15, it probably will be worse. Yes, the newest cars will stand up for it, but the fuel usage will not be any better than it is now.
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Old 01-12-2019, 05:33:59 PM
pegasuspinto pegasuspinto is offline
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Default Re: E15 in newer cars

OK, I'm calling the BS again.

E-10 will NOT cause a 20% drop in fuel economy, that's just plain dumb. If you replaced 10% of your gas with an inert, non-combustible replacement, it would only be a 10% drop. Ethanol is, however, a combustible fuel. As I recall, the basic math supports a 20% drop in economy when using e-85, but most "flexfuel" vehicles, the computer can compensate and make that a few % less. E-85 is cheaper, as well. IMHO the price difference doesn't fully offset the mileage loss, but I aint gonna fret about it.

When using e-10, the difference in mileage will be had to discern unless you're keeping mileage records and are driving in somewhat constant pattern.

For most everyone, e-10 or e-15 isn't going to make much difference, other then if you let it sit up, no doubt it doesn't age as well as 'straight gasoline'.

Wonder with all the mythical properties people give ethanol, why the same people would willingly pour it down their throat mystifies me.

I'm not getting into the political side of ethanol. Kinda don't care.
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Old 01-12-2019, 09:24:37 PM
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Default Re: E15 in newer cars

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Originally Posted by pegasuspinto View Post
E-10 will NOT cause a 20% drop in fuel economy, that's just plain dumb.
That depends on the vehicle. E10 fed into my 1988 Chevy Nova with its 2 barrel carburetor 4 cylinder engine would consistently see a 25% decrease in fuel economy. I could get nearly 40 MPG from it on straight gasoline, but it would go down to 30 MPG when given E10.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pegasuspinto View Post
As I recall, the basic math supports a 20% drop in economy when using e-85, but most "flexfuel" vehicles, the computer can compensate and make that a few % less. E-85 is cheaper, as well. IMHO the price difference doesn't fully offset the mileage loss, but I aint gonna fret about it.
This is exactly the case. E10 in a carburetor that had not been adjusted to work with it would result in a chronic lean burn condition, I would have to hold the throttle open further to compensate for the loss of power. Which decreased fuel economy and acceleration.

A modern EFI engine will automatically richen up the mixture and advance the timing slightly to compensate for E10 instead of normal gasoline, and the difference in fuel economy ends up being almost trivial. Some engines can get even better fuel economy on E10 than E0 because they can tune more aggressively without knocking.

I actually did put this to the test a few times. My commute is quite consistent and I rarely detour from it. I would fill the gas tank until the pump stopped by itself, then drive until it was empty, then return to that same station and pump to let it fill until it stopped and tell me how much was used. Meanwhile the trip odometer would tell me how far the car had gone between tanks. Like so I could get a fairly reliable MPG reading.

On my 1988 Chevy Nova, rest in pieces, it was a clear and consistent decrease from 40 MPG to 30 MPG when the car was given E10 instead of E0. There was also a noticeable performance change, the engine would lack power and run hotter due to the lean burn condition caused by the E10.

My current car, a 2015 Mitsubishi Mirage with a 3 cylinder EFI engine, the difference in MPG is too small to detect using this method. I could probably repeat the experiment a few times to pick up on a difference, but it is close enough for my use case to say it no longer matters.


"Flex Fuel" certified engines are designed to operate correctly on fuel mixtures containing up to 85% ethanol. You can even buy E-85 fuel for them, which would almost certainly yield an MPG decrease, but at significant cost savings during periods where gasoline prices are high. I've yet to own a vehicle with this feature, but much of what is on the road supports this.

My Hit & Miss engine likes E10 as well. Compared to the fuels of the 1920s, its premium high octane with a shot of moonshine in it. Just turn the mixer needle a little further open to keep mixture.
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Old 01-13-2019, 12:31:50 AM
pegasuspinto pegasuspinto is offline
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Default Re: E15 in newer cars

Your 1988 chevy nova/toyota corolla had an O2 sensor and mixture control, I tend to think if your mileage dropped that badly, that the system was malfunctioning.

Tho also, having owned a 1986 nova/corolla, you must of driven pretty carefully to get 40 out of it! EPA ratings were 33 highway.
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymo...let_Nova.shtml
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Old 01-13-2019, 01:41:49 AM
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Default Re: E15 in newer cars

It was as old as I am. 1.6L carbureted, believed to be 2 barrel. Had a 5 speed stick. I'd always try to keep the RPM down, except when I had to make torque to get through a busy intersection or up a steep hill. At the time my daily commute was 30 miles round trip, 20 of which was on the highway.

Was aware of it having a bypass carburetor and O2 sensor, but with 180k miles when I bought it the engine was burning a bit of oil so the O2 sensor probably was fouled up and no longer usable.

The difference in power was quite noticeable on it, and over time I figured out what stations sold E0 so that I could get the gas that it ran correctly on.

Eventually after being my ratracer for 5 years and hitting 270k miles, I could no longer get 5th gear to catch on the transmission. Would try to select it and there would be nothing there anymore. So when the brakes and tires were worn down again, I drove it to the scrapyard to be sold. It hit 88 MPH one final time on the flats, using only the gears I had left. I miss that car so much, was always fun to drive even after it literally became the car from Rusty Chevrolet.

On the other hand my 2015 Mitsubishi Mirage might actually get slightly better fuel economy on the E10 than it does on E0. This has a 1.2L 3 cylinder with a CVT in it, and just like I used to do manually on the Nova the computer is always trying to keep the RPM as low as possible while still making enough torque to accelerate when I ask it to. Newer engines are built with the antiknock properties of Ethanol in mind and can have a higher compression ratio, then de-tune when given E0 to not knock themselves apart. Giving it E10 it can tune to its best, almost completely making up the reduced energy content by giving improved efficiency. Not sure how it would handle E15, it is not a Flexfuel rated powertrain.
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:38:05 PM
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Default Re: E15 in newer cars

Probably makes more of difference in an underpowered car that struggles to maintain speed on hills without having to downshift.

If you're already underpowered enough to begin with then I can see where running E10 or E15 might make a noticeable difference as you're opening the throttle more and more to still have an underpowered engine.

Everything I Own Has Power To Spare (and then some) and I have run E10 and E25 with No Noticeable difference in performance and No Measurable Difference in Fuel Economy, and I check my mileage on Every Fill-up.

I have also run mixtures of E85, Up to half a tank at a time mixed with the E10 with No Difference in Performance and less than a 1/2MPG drop in Mileage which was Greatly Offset by the Price Per Gallon. Not being a "Flex-Fuel" vehicle I didn't push my luck running the E85 more than 2 or 3 times with 1/3rd to 1/2 tank mixtures, but I ran the E25 for most of a Summer when it was available within my daily commute at the time, and then switched back to E10 again after that.

I haven't tried any E15 yet that I can remember, but as my (daily driver) car (2003 Ford Escort ZX2) handles E25 I know it will handle the E15 Just Fine.

I ran a Lot of E10 and Some E25 through my 37 Ford and 69 Firebird, and a few gallons of E85 in a 62 Chevy C-60 Dump Truck to get it home from the auction I bought it at.

E10 is All my Lawnmowers have ever seen in the past 25 years other than when I ran old used gas of unknown origin and a couple experiments running Kerosene through them.

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Old 01-13-2019, 09:51:21 PM
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Default Re: E15 in newer cars

Funny how everyone who has intentionally put E10, E15, or higher blends in their tractor, lawnmower, car, or motorcycle reports no problems. Everyone who accidently puts E10 in their vehicle reports 25% decrease in mileage, carburetors gumming up, gas tanks rusting out, and tires going flat. All blamed on the ethanol.
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Old 01-14-2019, 12:54:46 AM
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Default Re: E15 in newer cars

"Funny how everyone who has intentionally put E10, E15, or higher blends in their tractor, lawnmower, car, or motorcycle reports no problems."

Afraid I'm going to have to call BS on that statement as have seen first hand the carburetor problems ethanol gas has caused on many lawnmower, rototiller, weed whacker and chain saw engines. At a reputable small engine repair shop I once asked if the ethanol gas problem was evident at their shop and the mechanic said "That's what's keeping us in business".

Since I started using Premium fuel with zero ethanol in all my air cooled engines many years ago have had zero carburetor problems.

Bill
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Old 01-14-2019, 01:51:23 AM
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Default Re: E15 in newer cars

Ethanol blends don't seem to do well in small equipment with vented gas tanks. Probably not a terrible deal for someone who runs their equipment hard and never lets it sit, but it seems bad when it ages. I will say my chainsaw and weedwacker had issues but I switched to the canned premix fuel from the store and my problems are -gone-. But I dunno ethanol is the only cause. I had it stated from someone in the loop that small engines really needed their own fuel, because modern gasoline has evolved to be fit for the modern car, but is a poor choice for small engines.
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:51:08 AM
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Default Re: E15 in newer cars

Odin,you scrapped a running car that got that gooda gas mileage? Sheesh.Must be nice to be able to do that.
I would have kept driving it.
of course i am 1 of the 1's that is driving a 77 Impala with over 360,000 miles on it, so yea,I am different.But when something has never left you stranded,you take care of it.
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:25:53 AM
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Default Re: E15 in newer cars

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Originally Posted by uglyblue66 View Post
Odin,you scrapped a running car that got that gooda gas mileage? Sheesh.Must be nice to be able to do that.
I would have kept driving it.
If you've ever heard the song Rusty Chevrolet by Da Yoopers, that's what it had become. It burned a quart of oil for roughly every 20 gallons of gas. The body was a composite of carved foam, chicken wire, and bondo since the year-round salted roads had eaten the steel away. I couldn't pick 5th gear on the transmission anymore, nothing there to pick. Sometimes the starter would jam and I'd have to get it started by pushing it along then jumping in to perform a pop-start. Oh and the heater controls consisted of a bundle of wires coming out of the dashboard. I'd twist the ends together to select the fan speed I wanted. But the radio, it was okay!

I wish I could have saved it. It needed the engine and transmission overhauled, along with a lot of body and chassis work. At the time my parents were getting divorced and the farm was about to be sold to pay the legal fees. I didn't have the time or money left to give it the overhaul it deserved and turn it into a good reliable car again.
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Old 01-14-2019, 05:59:53 PM
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Default Re: E15 in newer cars

Silly to put much money into a 25+ year old econocar with a shot drivetrain. For the same price you can buy a newer car that gets probably better mileage with less rust. It's one thing if you are saving an old classic or a special car...otherwise, just get the newer car. Corollas never strayed, always been a good car.

Part of being frugal is knowing when to throw in the towel and replace something!
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Old 03-05-2019, 07:15:39 AM
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Cool Re: E15 in newer cars

The main concern is Glue and Rubber connection and fittings in fuel lines react with Ethanol . Including Petrol Caps that have Glue in the Makeup .
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Old 04-06-2019, 06:53:38 AM
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Default Re: E15 in newer cars

i have personally seen what this crap gas does to the checkvalves inside of a mechanical fuel pump, pump did have some age on it but very low use. i had replaced that pump when the orignal 30+ year old pump quit, new pump lasted maybe 8 years. I cut it apart to see what happened, it still looked new! what i found inside, the diaphram was good but both of the checkvalves were distorted. wrinkled up so it couldnt seal therfore no fuel being pumped. as for fuel mileage, i do keep records every fillup. and i can say this, you never know what you are going to get! i quit buying from the local exxon, mpg was 3 to 5 mpg less than unbranded fuel. something is wrong for sure, I had a worn out 1967 elcamino with a 327 CID that constantly got 22 mpg, now driving a buick & oldsmobile with the 3.8 v6 both getting 22, 23 mpg with OD and EFI, smaller engines, lighter cars, more aerodymanic than the 1967 brick that i was driving! switching over to 100% gas next fill up, will report results after a few weeks.
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