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Onan 30EK UR, Magniciter 07SX1N1C high voltage


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  #1  
Old 08-31-2011, 03:03:51 PM
franciscanfriars franciscanfriars is offline
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Default Onan 30EK UR, Magniciter 07SX1N1C high voltage

Model: 30EK-3UR8/1699A
Serial: 0469109675
Magniciter: 07SX1N1C

We have a 30EK, 120/240 3 wire 1969 model that is overexciting. I don't want to post a novel here so I'll try to be brief in explaining the situation.

Last year the generator had been running beautifully but over the winter the rats got in and built 3 nests - two in the control box, and one on top of the brushes and ring assembly. Unaware of this we started the unit up and the circuit breaker for the exciter tripped and a bright flash was seen coming from the area of the brushes and rings. We cleaned out the rats nests and now have tried and tested everything and there are no obvious signs of any damage or defective parts and yet it is still overexciting.

The unit is a brush type with a Magniciter 07SX1N1C. With the engine running at 1800rpm, when the breaker is switched on the voltage runs up to over 250v and the exciter breaker trips.

A visual inspection was done of all the components including the windings, the exciter, the brush assembly, the magneciter components and the control panel and nothing obvious was found.

We have meggered the windings and they are ok.

We have tested the voltage control rectifier and it appears to be OK. First we used a 12v battery with a lamp and on all 4 diodes the lamp lights in one direction and not the other. THen as a double check we placed a 120V supply to the rectifier and verified that we had a dc output. This test was done at no load but I don't suspect the unit to be faulty so I wasn't going to do any further testing.

We tested the resistance of the voltage control reactor and it was 16 Ohms.

We are at our wits end we are starting to suffer as we have been without power for over 3 days now and it looks like we could be without power for at least another week.

If anyone could give us some advice as to what to try next would be greatly appreciated.


friars at figuadalupe.com
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  #2  
Old 08-31-2011, 03:14:11 PM
BergmanJ BergmanJ is offline
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Default Re: Onan 30EK UR, Magniciter 07SX1N1C high voltage

franciscanfriars,

See the "sticky" on Magnecitersabove in this forum. There is a bench test for the exciter circuitry which really does work well.

High voltage out means that the Gate Reactors are either not being "driven", have at least one shorted winding; or the "reset" switch (if one is present) is shorted-out (from mouse "pee"???).

Regards, JLB
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Old 08-31-2011, 04:18:10 PM
franciscanfriars franciscanfriars is offline
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Default Re: Onan 30EK UR, Magniciter 07SX1N1C high voltage

Quote:
Originally Posted by BergmanJ View Post
franciscanfriars,

See the "sticky" on Magnecitersabove in this forum. There is a bench test for the exciter circuitry which really does work well.

High voltage out means that the Gate Reactors are either not being "driven", have at least one shorted winding; or the "reset" switch (if one is present) is shorted-out (from mouse "pee"???).

Regards, JLB
Thank you for the quick response!

According to the flow chart we've checked out the resistance with results as follows from page 4-4 (magniciter checkout 2) using Method C:

1. resistance of control reactor C to 31 ok (spec 18.0).
2. resistance of large reactor C1 to C2 ok (9.0), G1 to G2 ok (.75)
3. stabilizing resistor was 200 ohms (spec 150.0) - not sure if this is too far out to be the cause?
4. no continuity between control and gate windings. (ok)

we have not done Method E which requires removal of the magniciter.
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  #4  
Old 09-01-2011, 08:02:09 AM
BergmanJ BergmanJ is offline
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Default Re: Onan 30EK UR, Magniciter 07SX1N1C high voltage

You're quite welcome. Others here have helped me out likewise; so, I figure this is just "payback" (pay-forward?) of sorts.

You've done just the "static" (D. C. / resistance) tests, which are not all that helpful beyond something grossly wrong: They will not tell you whether you have a shorted-turn in one of the reactors, for instance.

Do you have a "reset" (usually a red push-button) on the magneciter assembly itself? If so, check for it being shorted across (you can check this also by checking for very low resistance across the main gate reactor windings with everything on the magneciter connected as from the factory).

Have you verified that the "line" resistor connections across that resistor and the tap to the control reactor are all good and within spec? If the control reactor is not getting a good connection from line monitoring, the magneciter gate reactors are "wide-open" and will provide maximum unregulated excitation, with the resulting high output generator voltage.

Method "E" is much more definitive; and, should be your next step, if at all possible.

Bench-testing it "live" will give you your answer if nothing else did.

Regards, JLB
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Old 09-01-2011, 08:42:24 AM
franciscanfriars franciscanfriars is offline
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Default Re: Onan 30EK UR, Magniciter 07SX1N1C high voltage

Dear JLB,

We are going to bite the bullet and remove the unit and bench test it. It's going to be very painful to do so but I guess it's the only option we have left at the moment. Going on 5 days without power in NE CT here and word on the street is it could be 2 weeks before we get our power back on. I'll let you know the results of the bench test. Thank you for your help.
Yours in Christ and His Most Holy Mother

friar Augustine Arts F.I.

Ave Maria!
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Old 09-01-2011, 10:52:02 AM
BergmanJ BergmanJ is offline
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Default Re: Onan 30EK UR, Magniciter 07SX1N1C high voltage

Friar Augustine,

May He be with you in this experience. I'll try to help as I can.

To try and add a little levity to your present hard times: I was born and raised in a small neighborhood here in Duluth MN with a majority of immigrants, mostly from the european Balkan region. The majority was of Roman Catholic Christian faith, with the next largest group being Serbian Orthodox Christian. I was in the minority of "heathen" Protestant Christians.

My immediate surrounding neighbors were all Catholic, except for one couple who were also Protestant and members of my church.

The close-by Catholic congregation could not find anyone within their congregation to volunteer to do maintenance and daily bell-ringing; so, my Protestant neighbor was hired to do that job. He subsequently hired me (at age 13 -- 14 or so) to help him clean the "clinkers" out of the coal-fired heating boiler, weekly; and, to ring the bell every week night and Saturday at 6:00 P. M! So, here are two Protestant "heathens" doing the Lord's work for the local Catholic Parish. That has always struck me somewhat humorously. I hope that it brings you and others some humor too.

God Speed, JLB
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Old 09-01-2011, 01:49:37 PM
Jim Rankin Jim Rankin is offline
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Default Re: Onan 30EK UR, Magniciter 07SX1N1C high voltage

Before or as you remove the mangneciter, check all of the connections for corrosion. Sometimes things look good but the mouse urine has gotten underneath and you no longer have a good connection.

Also need to tug on each and every wire to make sure it's not broken internally, usually near where the terminal is crimped on. If it stretches when you pull on it..............

One thing you don't mention is checking the main field. To do this, lift the brushes or disconnect them from the exciter so you can read through the field from F+ to F-. A similar size generator I have the spec for says between 2.0 and 2.5 ohms. The reading will be approximate with a simple multimeter, so don't get too hung up on a small difference. But when you're there, check the resistance between a slipring and the shaft. I believe your problem could be a shorted slipring or field lead which run from the sliprings along the shaft to the field windings on the rotor. The ohm meter should show infinite resistance between the slipring or brush lead and the shaft of the rotor.
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Old 09-01-2011, 06:12:21 PM
franciscanfriars franciscanfriars is offline
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Default Re: Onan 30EK UR, Magniciter 07SX1N1C high voltage

Quote:
Originally Posted by BergmanJ View Post

You've done just the "static" (D. C. / resistance) tests, which are not all that helpful beyond something grossly wrong: They will not tell you whether you have a shorted-turn in one of the reactors, for instance.

Do you have a "reset" (usually a red push-button) on the magneciter assembly itself? If so, check for it being shorted across (you can check this also by checking for very low resistance across the main gate reactor windings with everything on the magneciter connected as from the factory).

Have you verified that the "line" resistor connections across that resistor and the tap to the control reactor are all good and within spec? If the control reactor is not getting a good connection from line monitoring, the magneciter gate reactors are "wide-open" and will provide maximum unregulated excitation, with the resulting high output generator voltage.

Method "E" is much more definitive; and, should be your next step, if at all possible.

Bench-testing it "live" will give you your answer if nothing else did.

Regards, JLB
Dear JLB,

We have no reset button on the Magneciter.

We removed the Magneciter and did the following tests:

We verified that the "line" resistor connections across that resistor and the tap to the control reactor are all good and within spec.

Verified that both reactors are operating correctly using test method "E", i.e., using a 110V test lamp.

We performed the Exciter Voltage Test A. Bench Test (Auxiliary Power). At 118V AC input to terminals E1 & E2, we were getting 98V DC out at terminals F1 & F2.

This pretty much confirms that the Magneciter is definitely overexciting - question is why?

Yours in Christ and His Most Holy Mother
Friar Augustine, F.I.
Ave Maria!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Rankin View Post
Before or as you remove the mangneciter, check all of the connections for corrosion. Sometimes things look good but the mouse urine has gotten underneath and you no longer have a good connection.

Also need to tug on each and every wire to make sure it's not broken internally, usually near where the terminal is crimped on. If it stretches when you pull on it..............

One thing you don't mention is checking the main field. To do this, lift the brushes or disconnect them from the exciter so you can read through the field from F+ to F-. A similar size generator I have the spec for says between 2.0 and 2.5 ohms. The reading will be approximate with a simple multimeter, so don't get too hung up on a small difference. But when you're there, check the resistance between a slipring and the shaft. I believe your problem could be a shorted slipring or field lead which run from the sliprings along the shaft to the field windings on the rotor. The ohm meter should show infinite resistance between the slipring or brush lead and the shaft of the rotor.
Dear Jim,

There is no corrosion on any of the terminals.

There are no broken wires.

The main field and all its readings were ok.

We removed the Magneciter and did the following tests:

We performed the Exciter Voltage Test A. Bench Test (Auxiliary Power). At 118V AC input to terminals E1 & E2, we were getting 98V DC out at terminals F1 & F2. According to the chart, we should have been getting 60-80 volts output.

Yours in Christ and His Most Holy Mother
Friar Augustine, F.I.
Ave Maria!
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Old 09-01-2011, 09:28:00 PM
Jim Rankin Jim Rankin is offline
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Default Re: Onan 30EK UR, Magniciter 07SX1N1C high voltage

OK I think you've nothing to loose here, so I would move the tap on the stabilizing resister to decrease the resistance to the 150 ohm spec. There should be no downside to doing this. You may need to clean the surface of the resister so when you move the tap it makes good contact where you tighten it down. It's possible you will wind up with it back in the same spot after you clean the surface under the tap.

Have a PTO drive 25kW magneciter here that only runs every few years sometimes and the last time I wanted to use it, the voltage was low. It has an 06sx magneciter with a voltage adjust resister made just like the stabilizing resister on yours.

Anyway, I cleaned it up and adjusted it to get the voltage back to spec. Point is, things change in these old exciters and sometimes you have to adjust something to compensate. Yours doesn't have a voltage adjust resister, so the only adjustment I can see which might help you is the stabilizing resister.

If nothing else and you have access to a variac which is heavy enough to drive the field (you did use one for the bench test right?), you might want to connect it between E1 and E2 and their respective exciter wires so you can raise the voltage the magneciter sees so perhaps it will control at the artifically higher voltage it's sensing.
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Old 09-02-2011, 07:56:53 AM
BergmanJ BergmanJ is offline
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Default Re: Onan 30EK UR, Magniciter 07SX1N1C high voltage

Friar,

Please try Jim Rankin's suggestions - could still just be a poor connection due to corrosion from the critters; or from just "sitting".

I'm still a little suspicious that you're not getting a high-enough voltage tap to the control reactor from the line resistor between E1 & E2 for "whatever" reason (maybe the corrosion).

Also, I just re-read your initial post about using a 12 V battery with a lamp to test the control rectifiers: I would now suggest that that method is not "foolproof" when used to test the individual diodes while they are still connected ("leak" paths around the "bad [open] diode exist around the "bridge" when all are still connected - light may still light with not enough difference on 12 V to be noticeable to the eye) - I would strongly suggest that you re-test each one individually with one-end of each disconnected - you may still have at least one diode "open", and not supplying full voltage to the gate reactors on their control windings.

Regards, JLB
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Old 09-02-2011, 10:42:31 AM
franciscanfriars franciscanfriars is offline
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Default Re: Onan 30EK UR, Magniciter 07SX1N1C high voltage

Quote:
Originally Posted by BergmanJ View Post
Friar,

Please try Jim Rankin's suggestions - could still just be a poor connection due to corrosion from the critters; or from just "sitting".

I'm still a little suspicious that you're not getting a high-enough voltage tap to the control reactor from the line resistor between E1 & E2 for "whatever" reason (maybe the corrosion).

Also, I just re-read your initial post about using a 12 V battery with a lamp to test the control rectifiers: I would now suggest that that method is not "foolproof" when used to test the individual diodes while they are still connected ("leak" paths around the "bad [open] diode exist around the "bridge" when all are still connected - light may still light with not enough difference on 12 V to be noticeable to the eye) - I would strongly suggest that you re-test each one individually with one-end of each disconnected - you may still have at least one diode "open", and not supplying full voltage to the gate reactors on their control windings.

Regards, JLB
We removed the control rectifier assembly and tested it as a full wave bridge. Applying 120VAC to the input terminals gave 108VDC on the output. This was a no-load test. As far as I can see the only possibility for this thing (the Magneciter) not working is that the rectifier assembly is not functioning correctly. I'll try a load test on the rectifier and let you know the results.

Thank you for all your help.

Yours in the Most Sacred Hearts of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph

friar Augustine F.I.

Ave Maria!
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Old 09-02-2011, 10:51:18 AM
Ted_Cool Ted_Cool is offline
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Default Re: Onan 30EK UR, Magniciter 07SX1N1C high voltage

High output would most often be caused by low or no voltage in the control loop circuit.

The circuit is the the control reactor, the bridge rectifier and the control windings of the gate reactors.

The schematic doesn't show the connection from the control reactor to the other side of the AC feed - it just stops at terminal 31, where it is jumped to 32.

There must be a connection there to the ac input E1 at terminal 33 somehow.

The prints refer to a rheostat connection - 'see output diagram' - this has to be the voltage adjustment resistor. Something has to be connected there.

You need the rheostat connected between 32 and 33. You could use a big 100 watt 200 ohm resistor. Anything, really, for a quick test. Maybe even a jumper across the two. - full voltage in the control loop will result in minimum voltage in the exciter output.

What's there now?
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Old 09-02-2011, 11:30:09 AM
franciscanfriars franciscanfriars is offline
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Default Re: Onan 30EK UR, Magniciter 07SX1N1C high voltage

OK. That was the answer. I applied 120VAC to terminals E1 & E2 and then measured the output voltage on F1 & F2 - same as before, i.e., 90VDC. When I shorted across terminals 32 & 33 the voltage dropped down to 20VDC. This pretty much proves that the Magneciter is working - I don't have a variac to adjust the input voltage to see what happens - I'll try and procure one and keep you posted.

Ave Maria!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ted_cool View Post
High output would most often be caused by low or no voltage in the control loop circuit.

The circuit is the the control reactor, the bridge rectifier and the control windings of the gate reactors.

The schematic doesn't show the connection from the control reactor to the other side of the AC feed - it just stops at terminal 31, where it is jumped to 32.

There must be a connection there to the ac input E1 at terminal 33 somehow.

The prints refer to a rheostat connection - 'see output diagram' - this has to be the voltage adjustment resistor. Something has to be connected there.

You need the rheostat connected between 32 and 33. You could use a big 100 watt 200 ohm resistor. Anything, really, for a quick test. Maybe even a jumper across the two. - full voltage in the control loop will result in minimum voltage in the exciter output.

What's there now?
So now the plot thickens!

What I've always been missing is the wiring diagram of inside the control box. I've never seen the rheostat mounted on the front panel to finely adjust the generator voltage shown on any drawings or its interconnection to the Magneciter. Now its starting to come together. I see that terminal 34 on the Magneciter is connected to a resistor (I measure it at around 500 Ohms) mounted inside the control box. This resistor is right in the area where the micees made their nest and the whole area was covered with pee and you know what. Anyways, do you know where I can get a wiring diagram showing the inside of the control box and its relationship to the Magneciter? You mention a 'see output diagram' in your post but what is this referring to?

Thanking you in anticipation.

Yours in the Most Sacred Hearts of Jesus, Mary and Joseph

friar Augustine F.I.

Ave Maria!
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Old 09-02-2011, 01:53:33 PM
Ted_Cool Ted_Cool is offline
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Default Re: Onan 30EK UR, Magniciter 07SX1N1C high voltage

Terminal 34 is one of the AC inputs to the Magneciter ( E2 ). It feeds the gate windings and one side of the bridge rectifier. I don't know what else might have been connected there - I only have the Magneciter schematic. Others here might have the schematic for the 30EK control box.

What is the other end of the resistor connected to?

If you have a rheostat in the control box, it will need to end up connected between 33 and 32 ( or 31 - doesn't matter ).

There should only be two wires from the rheostat to the Magneciter. There might be a short jumper from the rheostat WIPER to one end of the rheostat - just leave it there.

Last edited by BTPost; 09-02-2011 at 03:00:27 PM. Reason: fixed...
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Old 09-09-2011, 01:11:55 PM
franciscanfriars franciscanfriars is offline
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Default Re: Onan 30EK UR, Magniciter 07SX1N1C high voltage

Ave Maria!

So the plot thickens...

I disconnected terminals F1 & F2 from the brush assembly to the magneciter and then measured the resistance across the rotor assembly - 36 ohms. I couldn't find the expected value in any of the manuals but 36 ohms seems like a reasonable value so I reconnected the rotor to the Magneciter.

We acquired a variac and then we tested the generator using the variac to control the voltage applied to the Magneciter.

I took terminals E1 & E2 from the control panel and placed these as the inputs into the variac. Then from the output of the variac I placed these to the E1 & E2 input terminals on the Magneciter.

I started the engine and then slowly brought up the voltage on the variac. When it hit about 40V the voltage suddenly ran away and then the circuit breaker tripped. I tried this again bringing the voltage up even slower (thinking that I might be able to control the output voltage) but the same thing happened.

So I'm still at a total loss. Any suggestions?

Thanking you all in anticipation

Yours in Christ and His Most Holy Mother

friar Augustine F.I.

Ave Maria!
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Old 09-09-2011, 07:31:18 PM
Jim Rankin Jim Rankin is offline
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Default Re: Onan 30EK UR, Magniciter 07SX1N1C high voltage

I believe you want to start out with the voltage set to maximum and then slowly lower it. If you can go over 120, to around 130 that is where I would start. I dont' know if a 120 volt variac can go higher than input voltage?

Starting out low and coming up, you are simulating an overload/undervoltage condition and once it reaches a threshold voltage which is required to operate, the magneciter should go full out like it is doing. The breaker trips to protect it.
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Old 09-09-2011, 09:17:38 PM
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Default Re: Onan 30EK UR, Magniciter 07SX1N1C high voltage

This sounds like you still don't have your control circuit connected. did you connect the rheostat or an adjustable resistor between 33 and 32?
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Old 09-10-2011, 08:52:06 AM
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Default Re: Onan 30EK UR, Magniciter 07SX1N1C high voltage

Ave Maria!

Dear Jim,

Yep. This occurred to me as well. Mulling over the test I realized that I need to get the voltage over 120V so the Magneciter will bring the current into the rotor down. Its a strange beast this Magneciter - works the opposite to the way a normal voltage regulator works. Unfortunately the variac I acquired is not the type that can output a higher voltage than the input voltabge - this type is available and maybe I need to procure one of this type to continue the testing. Thing is, am I really on the right track here?

---------- Post added at 08:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 AM ----------

Dear Ted,

Yep. I did connect the control circuit rheostat. I also retested the rheostat and confirmed that it does work. I think what I might do is go back and bench test the Magneciter again using the variac and measure the output DC voltage to the rotor at various input voltages. I just don't see anything else that could be wrong here. One possible clue to the problem is that I have since found out that this problem that the generator is having didn't happen at once - it gradually started to get worse. The time from closing the circuit breaker to its eventual tripping on overload got quicker and quicker everytime the unit was tested. I don't know if this might be a helpful clue?
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Old 09-10-2011, 09:23:39 AM
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Billy J Shafer Billy J Shafer is offline
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Default Re: Onan 30EK UR, Magniciter 07SX1N1C high voltage

I am staying out of this one. Because you are getting good advice. But from your test I don't think the problem is in the mag unit. I would take a good look at the rotor and stator.
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Old 09-10-2011, 10:45:07 AM
franciscanfriars franciscanfriars is offline
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Default Re: Onan 30EK UR, Magniciter 07SX1N1C high voltage

Ave Maria!

Dear Billy,

Please don't stay out - too many cooks don't spoil the broth! I measured the resistance of the rotor and found it to be 36 ohms. This seems like a figure I would expect but I couldn't find the resistance in the specs to verify this. The rotor windings, brushes, slip rings etc all look in top condition. The micees did however build a nest on top of the slip ring and brush assembly and the generator was started with that nest still there.
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