Steam Engines
[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Groups] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Books] - [Sponsors] -

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® Old Iron and Tractor Community > Steam Stationary Engines, Traction Engines
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Steam Stationary Engines, Traction Engines Antique steam engines, their boilers, pumps, gauges, whistles and other related things that make them run. Also Locomotives nad Railroads.

Steam Stationary Engines, Traction Engines

1/2 or 5/8 scale engine build


this thread has 33 replies and has been viewed 4941 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-06-2008, 04:25:16 PM
GHammer GHammer is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Mt. Solon, Va. USA
Posts: 11
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default 1/2 or 5/8 scale engine build

I think I'm finally at the point in my life to get serious about a 1/2 or 5/8 scale steam traction engine. I have read past threads with great interest. What ever came of the talked about 1/2 scale 110 Case? Are the 1/2 scale 65 Cases still being built? How about the 1/2 scale Bakers? Jonas Stutzman?Others?
I would appreciate feedback concerning the where, how, and who of scale traction engines and if there are others interested as I'm sure there would be savings to be realized in foundry, boiler costs if more than one were being made.
I have good fabrication and modest machining skills and good resources (equipment) at my disposal.
-Thoughts?

-GHammer
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 11-06-2008, 05:02:26 PM
terry tabb
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 1/2 or 5/8 scale engine build

yes that would be net to see some of pictures of some , i get mine done i will post it for you guys to see,my grandpa said long time ago, it stayed with me all this time, if you cant buy it, make it , well i can buy it now but im not paying that much for it , so i make it, alot of that has been lost and even more know, people just buy it,and the kids they dont have the interest to do it or the know how why shoud they they can buy it or waste there time playing there games , iron pales are fading away, and some just gone, sorry i got off traked, haha,
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-06-2008, 09:52:50 PM
Peter Peter is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 2,433
Thanks: 699
Thanked 1,074 Times in 493 Posts
Default Re: 1/2 or 5/8 scale engine build

I though about and though about it. Basically the time, risk and dollars scared me. but, I did some home work and I believe you can do it if you are serious. What you have to do is start send PMs. Decide and then do it.

I think you best bet is too go with 1/2 case because there is a lot of experience all worked out on that model. Castings are available right here. I think for 5k. The boilers are ready built and can be order off the shelf at least one supplier maybe two. Well under 10k. (maybe 8k?) Builders include Jonas Stutznam(?) and Oliver. For the money involved, I would recommend a trip to go see the boiler,- definite definite definite. Thats my recommendation. 1/2 case and go see the boilers for your self.

You mention 5/8. thats a big step up. You really want to go that route for a first project? The guy with the 110 case patterns (which is basically a 5/8 class engine) seemed very reasonable and experienced person, friendly guy who offered to cast a set for me if I wanted to join the project when he started. Now, it maybe too late, you have to read the old thread and send him a PM and ask. He was doing a boiler design with oliver. And fixing the patterns up. We were all talking building scale 75hp wide wheel plow engines with the 1/2 patterns for 110. Way better than a 110 IMHO. Better ergonomics , better looks, taller standing - no comparison.

If you want a Baker, there is a thread or two and I suggest you start sending PM's. I dont like the way the running gear is bolted to the boiler on a Baker. Thats just me. The Jonas 5/8 engine looked just unbelievable. I don't expect anyone to equal that for a first effort.

A double reeves Canadian would be super, I saw some threads. You could search and try a PM.

I never built one, so my advise is probably worth on 1.5c
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-07-2008, 12:50:26 AM
LAKnox LAKnox is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chandler, Arizona USA
Posts: 742
Thanks: 52
Thanked 258 Times in 172 Posts
Default Re: 1/2 or 5/8 scale engine build

Quote:
Originally Posted by GHammer View Post
I think I'm finally at the point in my life to get serious about a 1/2 or 5/8 scale steam traction engine. I have read past threads with great interest. What ever came of the talked about 1/2 scale 110 Case? Are the 1/2 scale 65 Cases still being built? How about the 1/2 scale Bakers? Jonas Stutzman?Others?
I would appreciate feedback concerning the where, how, and who of scale traction engines and if there are others interested as I'm sure there would be savings to be realized in foundry, boiler costs if more than one were being made.
I have good fabrication and modest machining skills and good resources (equipment) at my disposal.
-Thoughts?

-GHammer
To give you some idea of cost, about 2 years ago we asked a local machine shop to estimate what it would cost to build a 1/2 scale. This was based on ~100 hours labor that was done on another pro-built 1/2 scale, and included materials not included in the casting kit. Kit, boiler (by Oliver), fab and materials came to about $30-35k. All painting and assembly was done by the owners, not the shop. Our estimate was based on $55/hr shop cost. Last I heard, there were several more castings available than when I last checked, so fabrication time may be different.

Lyle
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-07-2008, 08:20:10 AM
Peter Peter is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 2,433
Thanks: 699
Thanked 1,074 Times in 493 Posts
Default Re: 1/2 or 5/8 scale engine build

I believe - GHammer is talking about building & machining this himself or dividing the work with a couple partners. So there is no $55/hr cost. What he proposes should be nowhere near 35k. I think the boiler and castings are 13k. Naturally, you need a lot of expensive boiler brass and governor and even basic stock steel can add up. A person might have some of that and buy the rest. It got to be passable to bring in a 1/2 case under 20k.

Thinking, over night. A 1/2 case castings and boiler could be built up as a 1/2 scale of a 1909 25hp with 36' drivers waters governor old style cast stack for a nice looking scale.

Or a 1/2 case castings and boiler could be finished out as a 5/8 (more or less)scale of a 1909 9hp scale that would be a taller more comfortable machine to operate. And with a bob tail much prettier - cool waters governor. You can do the math, it might be a 5/8 of a 9hp? All the ergo benefits of a 5/8 without the weight and cost.

Talk is easy, I wish I could talk myself a scale .........

Edit: I went back and re-read the first post and buying a complete engine was considered and option, so the 35K infomation is good to know. As far as I know, no body anywhere is going to sell finished 1/2 scales like Tom Terning. It maybe a lack of buyers or legal lawsuit fears, what ever..... No one. Maybe you could cut a behind the scene deal with someone.

Arron Terning was selling 1/4 scales and he still might be. I dont think you want a 1/4 or 1/3.

Last edited by Peter; 11-07-2008 at 08:38:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-07-2008, 09:02:10 AM
GHammer GHammer is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Mt. Solon, Va. USA
Posts: 11
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: 1/2 or 5/8 scale engine build

Thanks for the thoughts! You are correct I was thinking about partnering with maybe a couple of folks who have been wanting a scale engine like me. Of course I would maybe buy a used engine if the price, condition, quality was right.
I really don't want anything smaller than 1/2 scale. Just too small for an adult.
I work as a Draftsman and Engineer in a pretty large custom fabrication shop in Va. I have a well equiped machine shop at my disposal plus plate rolls, shears, press brakes, ironworkers, paint and powdercoating facility, etc. Problem is I'm not much of a machinist beyond simple milling or lathe work. I am however a pretty good fabricator.
What I have in mind would be to buy the boiler(s) and castings and have a partner do the machine work while I do the fabrication, paint, piping, etc.
I would love to hear from folks who have done this, know of casting sources, and those who build boilers. I agree that a 1/2 scale Case would be the easiest and cheapest route but I want to see what all is out there before I make a decision.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-07-2008, 02:20:03 PM
Jeff Smith Jeff Smith is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Port St. Lucie, Florida, USA
Posts: 3,946
Thanks: 4,078
Thanked 2,637 Times in 1,053 Posts
Default Re: 1/2 or 5/8 scale engine build

If you can get a professionally built NEW CODE BOILER 1/2 scale engine for $35,000 as stated above you need to take it.....................Also, make sure the shop you hire has knowledge in steam engines and doesn’t just machine one piece to fit the other, or if they don’t you need to have a print that is dead on accurate and make sure they ask questions should there be the slightest “something” in their mind about the print. Please do not fool yourself, there are really no savings in multiple castings of the same item that is only one item on the pattern, and there is really not much savings on multiple code boilers. You can shop around, but they are in business to make money and feed their family just as we have jobs to feed ours, and they have a lot of expenses such as 941's, insurance, shop rent, salaries, and the list goes on forever and if you want them around in the future, you need to understand their point of view and the liability they are exposed to and support them so they will be there in the future and not expect too large of a discount just because you are having 10 boilers built. Just because the engines are smaller than their full size brothers, as someone stated in another thread “you need to get used to throwing out $100 bills”, that is not reduced to $1.00 because they are smaller, they still continue to be $100 bills, in fact, if they still made the $10,000 denomination bill there would be quite a few of them on the table at completion. I am not trying to depress you or kill your project, I am just somewhat familiar with what you are trying to achieve.


http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showth...mith+65hp+Case

Jeff Smith

Last edited by Jeff Smith; 11-07-2008 at 09:40:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-07-2008, 02:55:15 PM
GHammer GHammer is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Mt. Solon, Va. USA
Posts: 11
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: 1/2 or 5/8 scale engine build

$35,000 for the boiler only? That seems excessive and yes, that would kill the idea of building a new engine and turn the search toward something already out there.
I have a 1923 Frick portable that I am just finishing the restoration of. Thankfully the boiler is excellent but the engine was junk. I will have $10,000 in it when complete so I don't mind spending some $$$.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-07-2008, 03:03:19 PM
Peter Peter is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 2,433
Thanks: 699
Thanked 1,074 Times in 493 Posts
Default Re: 1/2 or 5/8 scale engine build

Thinking about what jeff said, how about -Going it alone and sticking with the 1/2 case. A big part of the expense for a machine shop is the first time jigs, setups and all that figuring. After a few engines, the shop hours would go way down. you might start asking around for quotes for machining just the engine&flywheel, with clutch, from a shop thats done a few already.

The guy who is a sponsor on this site, who offers the 1/2 case castings maybe able to refer just such an experienced shop.

Are you a good scrounger? Finding suitable gears would be a big savings. And not being able to do that a big expense. For the case its something like JD and massey gears, not easy to find any more. BUT, might be a lot of industry gears suitable if you looked in the right places. And differentials.

Edit: The castings are 5k and you can call the two names and get a current boiler quote. I think it was 8k before steel costs went nuts and they are back down again now.

Last edited by Peter; 11-07-2008 at 03:09:16 PM. Reason: boiler costs
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-07-2008, 03:25:35 PM
GHammer GHammer is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Mt. Solon, Va. USA
Posts: 11
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: 1/2 or 5/8 scale engine build

Thanks! I'm going to put a bunch of feelers out and make some phone calls. I'll post here what I find out.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-07-2008, 03:29:56 PM
David's Avatar
David David is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: North Carolina, USA
Posts: 1,446
Thanks: 254
Thanked 2,136 Times in 736 Posts
Default Re: 1/2 or 5/8 scale engine build

Quote:
Originally Posted by GHammer View Post
$35,000 for the boiler only? That seems excessive and yes, that would kill the idea of building a new engine and turn the search toward something already out there.
This can't be right.

I have a friend who got a quote on a new boiler for a 6 h.p. traction engine, which included moving the machinery from the old boiler to the new one, and the cost was under $30,000.00.

And yes, it will be a code boiler, NB & ASME.

David
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-07-2008, 03:33:33 PM
Peter Peter is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 2,433
Thanks: 699
Thanked 1,074 Times in 493 Posts
Default Re: 1/2 or 5/8 scale engine build

Here is a start:

Oliver's Boilers 519-526-7640

Jonas Stutzman 440-632-0052

I cannot find the seller of the castings, can anyone provide that contact, the ad must have expired on Harrys.

Last edited by Peter; 11-07-2008 at 03:42:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-07-2008, 04:10:50 PM
Beth V's Avatar
Beth V Beth V is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: SE Michigan, USA
Posts: 12,450
Thanks: 9,271
Thanked 4,294,967,134 Times in 3,931 Posts
Default Re: 1/2 or 5/8 scale engine build

Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
This can't be right.

I have a friend who got a quote on a new boiler for a 6 h.p. traction engine, which included moving the machinery from the old boiler to the new one, and the cost was under $30,000.00.

And yes, it will be a code boiler, NB & ASME.

David
A phone call or 2 to the boiler makers would be the best solution. The price of steel as well as labor skews the numbers in a hurry.

Thanks for the numbers Peter.

Hey Jeff Lund aka LundMachineworks, so you build scale boilers?

Beth
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-07-2008, 04:22:08 PM
GHammer GHammer is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Mt. Solon, Va. USA
Posts: 11
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: 1/2 or 5/8 scale engine build

Ok, I just got off the phone with Jonas Stutzman and here's the facts. Half scale Case boiler brand new ASME code 175 psi =$9000. 5/8 scale Baker boiler brand new ASME code 175 psi =$15,000. New 175 psi ASME code boiler for full size traction engine =$25,000 - $35,000 depending on size.
I can handle $9000-$15,000 I think but I won't be having any full size engines reboilered anytime soon!
I'll see what Oliver's says.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-07-2008, 04:31:09 PM
Beth V's Avatar
Beth V Beth V is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: SE Michigan, USA
Posts: 12,450
Thanks: 9,271
Thanked 4,294,967,134 Times in 3,931 Posts
Default Re: 1/2 or 5/8 scale engine build

I'm curious on the price difference between the Case & Baker...aside of the size, are the Baker's wet bottom in his scale model and might they include the engine castings? I know he used to have them...don't forget the extension rims....

The line up for full size boilers is documented elsewhere......that 19 Port sits next to the 16 Reeves which is sitting next to the 2 Anderson Cases which are next to a Minnie.....on one side with 2 Bakers, 2 Advance Rumelys & a Frick on the other side...then there is the line up of bare boilers.................

Beth
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-07-2008, 04:41:28 PM
GHammer GHammer is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Mt. Solon, Va. USA
Posts: 11
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: 1/2 or 5/8 scale engine build

The Baker is larger (20" barrel vs. 16" barrel) and is wet bottom. He had Cattail Foundry do 7 sets of castings (all sold) and then sold the patterns to someone that is supposed to do more castings for sale at some point.

I will be off line for the weekend but I'll be back Monday. Thanks for all the replies. I'd love to hear some feedback from CaseMaker, BakerMaker, or anyone else with knowledege of the scale stuff.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-07-2008, 05:00:30 PM
BakerMaker's Avatar
BakerMaker BakerMaker is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Gridley, Illinois, USA
Posts: 579
Thanks: 1,570
Thanked 1,449 Times in 358 Posts
Default Re: 1/2 or 5/8 scale engine build

PM Casemaker on this forum for 1/2 scale Case castings.

See www.steamsmith.com for 1/2 scale Baker / castings.

I have the 5/8 scale Baker patterns from which Jonas's 5/8 is built. Jonas "souped up" the patterns to 6 3/4 X 7 1/8 bore and stroke. No need for extensions - a couple of inches have been added to the rear hub casting so it will be 16"+ wide rim without extension Jonas's boiler is a riveted wet bottom. Others were welded with fake wet bottoms rivets. One the the 5/8 Bakers was not too far from you - W.V.

Or if you want to wait a couple of years a 9/16 40hp Avery ( 5/8 of a regular Avery ) may be available

Dick
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-07-2008, 05:08:20 PM
GHammer GHammer is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Mt. Solon, Va. USA
Posts: 11
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: 1/2 or 5/8 scale engine build

Thanks BakerMaker! Shall we assume that at some point you will have these castings available?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-07-2008, 05:44:08 PM
BakerMaker's Avatar
BakerMaker BakerMaker is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Gridley, Illinois, USA
Posts: 579
Thanks: 1,570
Thanked 1,449 Times in 358 Posts
Default Re: 1/2 or 5/8 scale engine build

Yes - The 1/2 or 5/8 are available. Just a matter of getting the patterns over to the foundry.

Dick
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-07-2008, 08:53:36 PM
Jeff Smith Jeff Smith is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Port St. Lucie, Florida, USA
Posts: 3,946
Thanks: 4,078
Thanked 2,637 Times in 1,053 Posts
Default Re: 1/2 or 5/8 scale engine build

Quote:
Originally Posted by GHammer View Post
$35,000 for the boiler only?
No, that is the total cost of having the entire engine built from a machine shop in your area including a new code boiler built by a boiler shop..........an engine that you can go to that shop one day after a phone call from them and pick up your new finished operating engine.

Jeff Smith
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump

Similar Threads Chosen at Random
Thread Thread Starter F o r u m Replies Last Post
Good Book? How to build a 4" case traction engine peitz Steam Stationary Engines, Traction Engines 16 06-18-2012 11:13:32 PM
Someone to build a small hot air engine? todd pool Scale Model Engineering 2 04-13-2008 01:10:41 AM
1/2 scale 1/3 scale steam engine Dale Steam Stationary Engines, Traction Engines 5 10-16-2006 10:06:03 AM
1/2 scale Kitten Steam engine/1/4 scale case KG1584 Steam Stationary Engines, Traction Engines 9 07-21-2006 12:21:43 AM
Build yor own engine??? Ned L Antique Engine Archives 24 08-23-2004 06:37:44 PM


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:54:27 PM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2019 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277