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Porter Cable BSV 750-W Brushless Generator with NO AC output


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  #1  
Old 06-06-2014, 02:21:43 PM
joehelf joehelf is offline
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Default Porter Cable BSV 750-W Brushless Generator with NO AC output

No AC Output from Porter Cable Genset
I have a Porter Cable BSV 750-W Brushless Generator. I bought it from a guy that said it was working when he put it away but about 2 months ago when he fired it up it was not putting out voltage. It is not putting out much AC voltage. The specs on the nameplate are as follows.
AC: 120/240, 62.5/31.25A
Output: Rated 7500W, Surge 10,750W
Engine Speed: 3600RPM
Power Factor: 1.0
Freq: 60HZ, Phase: 1 Class F Insulation
Max. Amb. Temp:104, Duty Cycle: CONT.
Neutral bonded to frame
Porter-Cable Corp. Jackson, TN 38302
1888-559-8550
This is what I have tested so far.
Using a Fluke 87 VOM I measure 2VAC at the 110V outlets and 4VAC at the 240V outlet.
Stator windings show 0.4 ohms on both sets of windings. There are no ďshortsĒ to ground.
Rotor has 2 diodes tied to 2 different sets of windings. The diodes read 1.9 ohms in one direction and 0.00 Ohms in the other direction on both diodes. I measured the diodes still attached to their windings.
There is a 40uF CAP connected to another set of windings that also reads 0.4 ohms. I took the CAP to work and checked it on a capacitor tester and it reads 42uF. I figured the CAP is okay.
There is a bridge rectifier mounted on the frame of the genset and I checked its diodes by checking from AC to DC in one direction and had 487 ohms and reversed my leads and had 0.00ohms. I thought this means the rectifier is good. This test was done on all 4 terminals and each one had the same results.
With the genset running I am not seeing any voltages on the bridge rectifier terminals. No AC or DC. Iím not sure how the rectifier works with the genset but I know itís there for something. The genset does have a battery and electric start and with the motor running the battery reads 14.5VDC. With the motor off the battery reads 12.2VDC. So I think the battery is being charged. By what, I do not know.
I tried using a corded drill to ďre-flashĒ or excite the residual magnet but was unsuccessful. It may have been because the drill was a 0-300 RPM drill and it just would not spin fast enough or else because it is a modern drill with electronic control. Iím not really sure what thatís all about.
I have not checked the speed of the motor yet but I will soon. The motor runs great. No bog, no smoke, and it starts up easily each time.
So there you have it. I donít have any schematics so I canít tell if the readings I got from the rotor or stator windings are good or not but on other forums Iíve read they say the stator windings should be around 0.5 ohms.
Iím all ears and I will check email often if anyone chimes in.
Thanks
Joe
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  #2  
Old 06-06-2014, 04:15:34 PM
Power Power is offline
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Default Re: Porter Cable BSV 750-W Brushless Generator with NO AC output

I own a 550.
Mine had been sitting outside for 10 years. When I got engine squared away and everything cleaned up, it produced more than full voltage on start-up (governor issues). I think you found my thread.

Never found a schematic either.
My notes say these units were also labeled Black & Decker, Coleman, Powermate, and Pramac.

Maybe you will find what you need searching under those names and at Sears Parts Direct.
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Old 06-06-2014, 06:55:17 PM
Thaumaturge Thaumaturge is offline
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Default Re: Porter Cable BSV 750-W Brushless Generator with NO AC output

Hey Joe, hard to get a good read on the diodes inside rotor with them connected. Likely you are just reading the windings. With one end of diode disconected (unsoldered) On your fluke 87 set it to the diode function. (little diode symbol). Should read the junction drop in one direction, but OPEN in the other. Same on each diode in bridge. Bridge rectifier is likely for a 12V output. What it sounds like is that you aren't developing any rotor feild. Likely the diodes on the rotor. When you checked the cap did you check ESR? (Effective Series Resistance). It is possible for a cap to read okay for capacitance but have high ESR, resulting in reduced effective filtering. My best duess would be the rotor diodes. There was just recently a post here with a general clone generator scematic. I'll see if I can find it again and supply a link.
Doc

---------- Post added at 04:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:47 PM ----------

http://www.smokstak.com/forum/attach...1&d=1370455074

Here, found on Coleman powermate 500 thread.
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Old 06-06-2014, 08:12:32 PM
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Jim McIntyre Jim McIntyre is offline
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Default Re: Porter Cable BSV 750-W Brushless Generator with NO AC output

Quote:
Originally Posted by joehelf View Post
...The diodes read 1.9 ohms in one direction and 0.00 Ohms in the other direction on both diodes. I measured the diodes still attached to their windings....
Hi Joe, Welcome again.

I agree with the previous post - checking diodes is best done with one leg unsoldered.
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Old 06-07-2014, 09:17:17 PM
joehelf joehelf is offline
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Default Re: Porter Cable BSV 750-W Brushless Generator with NO AC output

Thanks for the information given so far. Thaumaturge I will do the diode test as you sugget at my next opportunity. As far as the CAP is concerned, I only tested it with a true capacitance meter. I can't remember the make or model of the tester but it is used by our HVAC mechanics when trouble shooting motors on industrial air handling units. To be honest I did not know about ESR - Effective Series Resistance. You are correct about the bridge rectifier. There is a set of 12VDC plugs on the front electrical panel. I followed it's wires all the way back to this bridge rectifier. Where is the AC wires for the rectifier connected?
I was looking at a website called WINCO while at work the other day and seen some generic pdf files for their gensets. Interestingly I found elementary drawings for some of those gensets. I don't know much about generators. AS of a matter of fact this is the only genset I've ever owned. In the WINCO drawings it looked like there are stator exciting windings besides the stator windings and rotor exciting windings besides the rotor windings. Am I reading that correctly? Or do I just not know what I was looking at? I have limited knowledge of electronics but I am a Master Electrician for a pharmaceutical company here in Indianapolis Indiana. Elementary drawings and schematics are no problem if I were to find one. I will look at the link Thaumaturge sent with his response.
Question. If I find out the diodes are bad on the rotor and change them out, do I still need to try and flash the residual magnetic field? Or will this change do the trick? That is if the CAP is okay.

That drawing was too small to see the details when I clicked the link. Any way to make it a full size drawing so when I click the link it fills an entire page?
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  #6  
Old 06-07-2014, 09:33:00 PM
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Default Re: Porter Cable BSV 750-W Brushless Generator with NO AC output

Quote:
Originally Posted by joehelf View Post
. In the WINCO drawings it looked like there are stator exciting windings besides the stator windings and rotor exciting windings besides the rotor windings. Am I reading that correctly? Or do I just not know what I was looking at? .

That drawing was too small to see the details when I clicked the link. Any way to make it a full size drawing so when I click the link it fills an entire page?
Mouse it, and ctrl +. I blew it up and could not read it. The resolution is not there.

Be careful looking at other manufacturer's drawings. just confuses everything with irrelevant information. Need to look at a schematic for your unit, or one built the same way.

Check the diodes as explained, if ok, borrow a RUN (not start) cap of whatever is close value from your guys, and try it. If you get voltage, then the cap is NG. Give the tester back and get correct value replacement.

I may be lucky. I have not had to flash field on any of the old timers I have rebuilt. Some would have full voltage immediately, some would come up after running a bit.
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Old 06-07-2014, 10:39:38 PM
Jim Rankin Jim Rankin is offline
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Default Re: Porter Cable BSV 750-W Brushless Generator with NO AC output

I know nothing about your generator..........

With that said, I would supply DC power to it's brushless exciter field. Might be safer to disconnect it from it's regulator connections so there is no possibility of burning the regulator board (if it even has such a thing being capacitor regulated). The brushless exciter field is a stationary steel ring with windings wrapped on it that comes out to two leads which are connected to the regulator/capacitor etc. Rotating inside the exciter field is the exciter armature. Again, a ring of steel laminations with a winding which may come out as 2 leads to the rectifier (single phase) or as 3 leads (3 phase). The armature develops AC power when it's rotated inside the stationary field while that is supplied with DC power. This AC power must be rectified to DC to supply the main alternator field. So you have a diode bridge arrangement of positive and negative diodes connecting the exciter armature winding to the main field. As was pointed out, these cannot be tested properly without isolating one connection for each one. You can only test for shorted diodes (reading resistance both directions) when testing parallel diodes. You cannot test for open diodes. So unless there are only 2 diodes, you must lift one connection from each one to test. Usually there will be 4 if single phase exciter armature and 6 if 3 phase.

Then there is the main alternator field which rotates inside the AC stator creating the magnetic field to induce power in the stator windings. Many small simple generators have an auxillary AC winding wound in the stator along with the main AC output windings. This auxillary winding supplies the regulator/exciter components with power. Other generators simply tap the main AC windings for this power.

If you supply 12 volts DC into the exciter field (matching the polarity of the wires to the polarity of the battery), you should get AC output from the generator. It may not be rated voltage, could be high or low, but it should be steady. Without any connections to the regulator or capacitor etc, AC voltage should collapse as soon as you remove your "flashing" connection to the exciter field. If you have the regulator connected, voltage may build up to rated volts and hold after flashing connection is removed. You do need to make sure you have the correct polarity before you flash with the regulator connected.

Flashing is a method of restoring the "residual" magnetic field of a generator. Your generator has a minimal residual field as evidenced by the 4Volts AC on the 240 outlet. It may be too low for the regulator and exciter to build up to full voltage.

I've never tried the drill method, but your concerns about modern variable speed control etc are probably valid. I would go for a DC source flash with the engine stopped first and if that doesn't work (after you start the engine up!), flash it with the engine running.

If your flashing causes no AC voltage increase, you have problems in the exciter field (the stationary coil you are supplying DC power to), the rotating exciter armature, the recitifer diodes, the main rotating field or the AC stator. Have to isolate and test each component to determine which. Your ohm readings of the stator sound fine along with the normal relationship of the AC residual voltage line to neutral and line to line. The AC stator is probably good.
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Old 06-08-2014, 09:47:23 AM
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Default Re: Porter Cable BSV 750-W Brushless Generator with NO AC output

Jim, the 550 is capacitor controlled. No board. I suspect the 750 is similar.
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Old 06-08-2014, 11:04:20 AM
madokie madokie is offline
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Default Re: Porter Cable BSV 750-W Brushless Generator with NO AC output

Quote:
Originally Posted by joehelf View Post
No AC Output from Porter Cable Genset
I have a Porter Cable BSV 750-W Brushless Generator. I bought it from a guy that said it was working when he put it away but about 2 months ago when he fired it up it was not putting out voltage. It is not putting out much AC voltage. The specs on the nameplate are as follows.
AC: 120/240, 62.5/31.25A
Output: Rated 7500W, Surge 10,750W
Engine Speed: 3600RPM
Power Factor: 1.0
Freq: 60HZ, Phase: 1 Class F Insulation
Max. Amb. Temp:104, Duty Cycle: CONT.
Neutral bonded to frame
Porter-Cable Corp. Jackson, TN 38302
1888-559-8550
This is what I have tested so far.
Using a Fluke 87 VOM I measure 2VAC at the 110V outlets and 4VAC at the 240V outlet.
Stator windings show 0.4 ohms on both sets of windings. There are no ďshortsĒ to ground.
Rotor has 2 diodes tied to 2 different sets of windings. The diodes read 1.9 ohms in one direction and 0.00 Ohms in the other direction on both diodes. I measured the diodes still attached to their windings.
There is a 40uF CAP connected to another set of windings that also reads 0.4 ohms. I took the CAP to work and checked it on a capacitor tester and it reads 42uF. I figured the CAP is okay.
There is a bridge rectifier mounted on the frame of the genset and I checked its diodes by checking from AC to DC in one direction and had 487 ohms and reversed my leads and had 0.00ohms. I thought this means the rectifier is good. This test was done on all 4 terminals and each one had the same results.
With the genset running I am not seeing any voltages on the bridge rectifier terminals. No AC or DC. Iím not sure how the rectifier works with the genset but I know itís there for something. The genset does have a battery and electric start and with the motor running the battery reads 14.5VDC. With the motor off the battery reads 12.2VDC. So I think the battery is being charged. By what, I do not know.
I tried using a corded drill to ďre-flashĒ or excite the residual magnet but was unsuccessful. It may have been because the drill was a 0-300 RPM drill and it just would not spin fast enough or else because it is a modern drill with electronic control. Iím not really sure what thatís all about.
I have not checked the speed of the motor yet but I will soon. The motor runs great. No bog, no smoke, and it starts up easily each time.
So there you have it. I donít have any schematics so I canít tell if the readings I got from the rotor or stator windings are good or not but on other forums Iíve read they say the stator windings should be around 0.5 ohms.
Iím all ears and I will check email often if anyone chimes in.
Thanks
Joe
I would suggest that it has lost its residual magnetizm.
I don't know anything about your particular generator but if it uses the generator as the starter check to make sure you are connecting the battery you are starting it with correctly, if it is connected in reverse the generator won't gen.
He is a link that explains how to re-energize the generator that I've used before that worked for me on two different generators.
http://www.endtimesreport.com/dead_gen.html
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  #10  
Old 06-08-2014, 12:39:27 PM
Fred M. Fred M. is offline
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Default Re: Porter Cable BSV 750-W Brushless Generator with NO AC output

Quote:
Originally Posted by joehelf View Post
That drawing was too small to see the details when I clicked the link. Any way to make it a full size drawing so when I click the link it fills an entire page?
A viewable drawing is in the thread, Coleman Powermate 500 watt Generator wiring help needed!

Fred
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  #11  
Old 06-09-2014, 04:20:50 PM
joehelf joehelf is offline
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Default Re: Porter Cable BSV 750-W Brushless Generator with NO AC output

How do I post pics? Can I download a pic from a home computer?
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Old 06-09-2014, 10:35:00 PM
Jim Rankin Jim Rankin is offline
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Default Re: Porter Cable BSV 750-W Brushless Generator with NO AC output

Hit the Post reply button at the top or bottom depending on how your thread display options are configured) of the thread. After you enter the text of your reply, scroll down and you will see a button with "manage attachments" click that and then browse on your computer hard drive to find the picture you want to upload, upload it and then any others you want to attach at the same time and then hit the submit button as you usually do for a text-only post.

It is best to open your picture viewer program and positively identify the pictures you want BEFORE you start posting them since the "browse" function doesn't allow you to open each picture, just select them from a list by the file name.
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Old 06-10-2014, 06:18:36 AM
joehelf joehelf is offline
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Default Re: Porter Cable BSV 750-W Brushless Generator with NO AC output

Here is a pic of the Porter Cable generator.
Inside of the bell end is a pic of the bridge rectifier mounted on the casting of the generator. I don't know yet how to edit and put arrows on pics so I can point out different things but please have patience with me and I'll get through it.
Hopefully this will work.
Joe
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Old 06-10-2014, 11:37:49 AM
Fred M. Fred M. is offline
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Default Re: Porter Cable BSV 750-W Brushless Generator with NO AC output

Joe-

You can find parts information at Porter Cable.

There are several "types" of your generator: 0,1,2,3. If you do not know which you have, they are probably all similar. By comparing each type, you may find a particular part is the same for each.

Fred
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Old 06-10-2014, 05:04:29 PM
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Default Re: Porter Cable BSV 750-W Brushless Generator with NO AC output

Here's a close up of the wires from the inside of the end bell.
If any of you can zoom in and identify the wires and what they're doing I'll try and make some sense of what I am doing.
BTW. I tried the exciting of the field magnetism by using the 3 lights in series one end plugged into a house powered outlet and the other end plugged into one of the 110V outlets. I started the gen and I saw the bulbs glowing and dimming and glowing and dimming. I ran this for about 2 mins. I then pulled the plug out of the gen and tested for voltage and still had none. Not sure if I left it on long enough or if I used the correct wattage of bulbs. All I had to work with was 3 - 40W bulbs instead of the 60W bulbs the link gave in their example.
If you look close enough you can see the 2 diodes attached to the rotor windings. Does the rotor have 2 separate windings or are these 2 separate windings actually 1 winding split on both sides of the rotor? The reason I ask is between any end of one winding to any end of the other winding I get nothing on my VOM. I still haven't unsoldered the diodes to check them. Please be patient with me. Once I get this thing figured out I promise to post the ultimate outcome for others who may be in the same fix as I am with a brushless genset.
Joe
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Old 06-10-2014, 08:42:48 PM
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Default Re: Porter Cable BSV 750-W Brushless Generator with NO AC output

Quote:
Originally Posted by joehelf View Post
H...Does the rotor have 2 separate windings or are these 2 separate windings actually 1 winding split on both sides of the rotor? .
2 separate windings, according to Fred's schematic.
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Old 06-11-2014, 03:54:49 AM
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Default Re: Porter Cable BSV 750-W Brushless Generator with NO AC output

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Originally Posted by Jim McIntyre View Post
2 separate windings, according to Fred's schematic.
Interesting. After a closer examination of the rotor windings I discovered not only the diodes but also the 2 resistors in parallel with the diodes just like the part of the drawing you have highlighted. They were stacked behind the diodes and as I turned the rotor carefully I spotted one of the resistors.
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Old 06-11-2014, 07:42:45 AM
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Default Re: Porter Cable BSV 750-W Brushless Generator with NO AC output

[QUOTE=Jim Rankin;1051442]I know nothing about your generator..........

With that said, I would supply DC power to it's brushless exciter field. Might be safer to disconnect it from it's regulator connections so there is no possibility of burning the regulator board (if it even has such a thing being capacitor regulated). The brushless exciter field is a stationary steel ring with windings wrapped on it that comes out to two leads which are connected to the regulator/capacitor etc.

If you supply 12 volts DC into the exciter field (matching the polarity of the wires to the polarity of the battery), you should get AC output from the generator. It may not be rated voltage, could be high or low, but it should be steady. Without any connections to the regulator or capacitor etc, AC voltage should collapse as soon as you remove your "flashing" connection to the exciter field. If you have the regulator connected, voltage may build up to rated volts and hold after flashing connection is removed. You do need to make sure you have the correct polarity before you flash with the regulator connected. [QUOTE]

I realize you may not know anything about my generator but you definitely seem to know what you are talking about as I compare what you have said with other things I have seen on the internet.

Jim if you look at the 3 pics I attached down in this thread you will see the capacitor. It has 2 faint red colored wires going to the CAP. If I understand your instructions those 2 wires would be the for the exciter field. I need to apply the 12VDC to these 2 wires. And....... the polarity needs to be correct. So if the wires are not marked and if by chance I get the polarity backwards does this mess things up? Or does it just not make the excitation that is needed until I reverse the polarity?
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Old 06-11-2014, 08:14:08 AM
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Default Re: Porter Cable BSV 750-W Brushless Generator with NO AC output

The 'brushless field exciter" is a rotating part. There is no practical way to "apply DC power" to it.

Again, I'd suggest testing the diodes the proper way...
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Old 06-11-2014, 11:46:52 AM
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Default Re: Porter Cable BSV 750-W Brushless Generator with NO AC output

When you properly check the diodes, check the resistors too, on the off chance one of them has been damaged and dropped in value. A partially shorted resistor will have the same effect as a shorted diode.
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