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Generators & Electric Motors General Discussion Antique Generators and Old Electric Motors: Questions and answers about restoring and showing old power generation systems.

Generators & Electric Motors General Discussion

Pesky Rusty Bolts


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  #1  
Old 05-31-2019, 08:43:21 PM
Railroads Railroads is offline
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Default Pesky Rusty Bolts

Hi Everyone, I didn't want to add anymore to my Homelite LR5000T thread since it was already pretty long.

I have tried to get the stator end bell bolts out, but with no luck. I managed to get one loose, but the other three are frozen. These pesky little buggers are not available anymore, and I am really not looking forward to breaking them off. How can I get these long bolts loose without snapping them off?

I realize I could use threaded rod and lock washers behind the nuts to hold the generator together. Just won't be original or look very pretty.

Robert
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  #2  
Old 05-31-2019, 10:34:42 PM
Steve Dawkins Steve Dawkins is offline
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Default Re: Pesky Rusty Bolts

Can you drain the fluids, turn the unit on end with the gen end facing up, and somehow get PB Blaster to run down the bolts towards the threaded end? Can you access the bolts through the cooling fins?
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  #3  
Old 05-31-2019, 11:50:24 PM
Railroads Railroads is offline
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Default Re: Pesky Rusty Bolts

Steve, I've given the thought of draining the oil and doing as you describe. Fuel tank is empty. I can only get to the end of the bolt at the very end of the nut. The rest is recessed and inaccessible unfortunately.

I might just have to settle for replacing the bolts, If I can find them? So I can re-grease the needle bearing and replace the corroded receptacle.

What I usually do with something like this, would be to soak it for a week with PB Blaster oil and then try to remove the bolts. I am thinking instead of wrenching on the long end, I might hold the head of the bolt with a box wrench and try to use the socket on the nut if I can get at it. Clearance between the fins and the engine block is pretty tight though.

Robert
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  #4  
Old 06-01-2019, 08:39:37 AM
Heins Heins is offline
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Default Re: Pesky Rusty Bolts

If you can get a small heating tip into the end with the nut, heat the nut red hot and let it cool. Than it should unscrew. Put Kroil or your PB blaster on it after it cools.
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Old 06-01-2019, 08:59:14 AM
Wayne 440 Wayne 440 is offline
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Default Re: Pesky Rusty Bolts

Use a Dremel tool and cut the nuts off maybe?
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  #6  
Old 06-01-2019, 01:14:46 PM
Railroads Railroads is offline
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Default Re: Pesky Rusty Bolts

They're partially recessed. Would be hard to cut the nut and not damage the gen housing.

Robert
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Old 06-02-2019, 12:15:03 PM
Steve Dawkins Steve Dawkins is offline
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Default Re: Pesky Rusty Bolts

Here is what I would probably try at this point. Spray PB Blaster or some other penetrating oil on the end of the nuts for a couple of days. You say the nuts are partially recessed? If you have the space, hold an open end wrench on them to help prevent the nut from turning in the housing recess while you sparingly use a battery impact wrench on the bolts. By sparingly, I mean to let the impact wrench only hammer a few times each time you pull the trigger. Maybe after repeated tries, you will be successful.
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Old 06-02-2019, 05:53:37 PM
Rich Mc Rich Mc is offline
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Default Re: Pesky Rusty Bolts

I have had reasonably good success by applying the penetrant(I have had to drill small holes for spraying in cases} then first trying to tighten the nut and if I get the slightest movement I will then apply more penetrant before reversing and if successful then it is two units loosening then one unit tightening while constantly adding penetrant.
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Old 06-02-2019, 06:30:23 PM
Railroads Railroads is offline
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Default Re: Pesky Rusty Bolts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Dawkins View Post
Here is what I would probably try at this point. Spray PB Blaster or some other penetrating oil on the end of the nuts for a couple of days. You say the nuts are partially recessed? If you have the space, hold an open end wrench on them to help prevent the nut from turning in the housing recess while you sparingly use a battery impact wrench on the bolts. By sparingly, I mean to let the impact wrench only hammer a few times each time you pull the trigger. Maybe after repeated tries, you will be successful.
The nuts are held from turning by the aluminum end bell at the engine end. I can't even get a wrench on them. No room. There is a piece of metal that acts as a lock to keep the nut from turning when loosening or tightening the bolts. So far, I have had some luck in getting the two top ones loose. They seem to want to come off. One of the bottom ones will turn a little, so I have been both tightening and loosening while coating in PB Blaster. I use the turn till tight and then reverse direction method, same as removing rusty muffler bolts. The other bottom one wont budge. It's going to snap off. I'm pretty sure of it.

I will keep working on it though. PB oil has only been soaking for a day now. It's coming off though, one way or another.

Reminds me of a motor I had once, rusted up. I ended up using threaded rod to put it back together. I'm not above doing the same here.

Robert
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  #10  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:06:47 PM
enginenut2 enginenut2 is offline
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Default Re: Pesky Rusty Bolts

I've used a trick for heating a fastener delicately when I couldn't use the torch flame directly. Find a sizable chunk of steel or copper--as large as you can get in contact with the fastener--maybe just an extension of the chunk. Need a way to comfortably hold the chunk while you heat it bright red. When you place it in contact w/the fastener, the heat will be conducted. Heat the fastener, hopefully the female part, then let it cool--several times. The heating and cooling will break the bond and off she'll come.
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  #11  
Old 06-04-2019, 05:21:38 PM
b7100 b7100 is offline
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Default Re: Pesky Rusty Bolts

Never tried it but the thought dawned on me to hook a welder to each end of the bolt and give it a short blast. They used to do that to thaw out lead water pipes. Now I would like to hear from those in the know of why you shouldn't do that. That's why this forum exhists - to learn.
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  #12  
Old 06-04-2019, 09:49:04 PM
Railroads Railroads is offline
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Default Re: Pesky Rusty Bolts

I would think doing such would have a negative effect on the diodes and electrolytic capacitor inside the end bell. This gen doesn't have an AVR. But if it did, You might well blow it up. Remember, There is a bond between the case and the generator internals.

Robert
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  #13  
Old 06-05-2019, 01:39:48 AM
mihit mihit is offline
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Default Re: Pesky Rusty Bolts

Heat, Beat, Repeat. With some penetrating oil in betwixt.

If you're sure the electrics will be safe you can use a transformer and heavy leads (a welder if you're keen), clamp the bolt head, and somewhere at the other end. Heat to red, stop before you spot weld it in!

You should be able to make, or have made, replacement tie rods. Consider improving the head length or something to make removal easier next time.
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Old 06-05-2019, 01:59:53 AM
Vanman Vanman is offline
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Default Re: Pesky Rusty Bolts

I think the welder trick sounds pretty clever! You're not passing any of the current through any of the electrical components. There's no complete circuit to harm them. Probably want the welder on the lowest setting so it doesn't heat up too quickly and melt.

Keith
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Old 06-05-2019, 06:47:29 AM
Railroads Railroads is offline
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Default Re: Pesky Rusty Bolts

Interesting, I remember reading when using a weldunator setup to reverse the leads when welding on your own vehicle. Seems not doing so tends to blow up some of the electronics on the vehicle being welded on. Mainly the ECU module.

I've researched the welder alternator conversions but not recently. I might have to see if I can find the dude's post whom had the misfortune of blowing out the ECU. It's all about the bonding between the frame and the electrical system.

Robert
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Old 06-05-2019, 02:09:48 PM
enginenut2 enginenut2 is offline
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Default Re: Pesky Rusty Bolts

What Mihit said is the primary attack, but think about what we are trying to do when we heat and beat. With any fit except interference fit there is clearance between the male and female component. The reason we can't separate the two is something has bonded them by filling the gap-so the trick is to break the bond. If a difficult nut, accessable, is the subject, we can stretch the nut by alternately hitting one flat w/hammer while "backing it up" on a opposite flat-hopefully all around, and an air hammer works well. Once it has turned it has to pass the threads and debris (rust) that are progressively being drawn in -clean them or cut them away first. The attact w/heat is a little different. If we heat the female(nut) it expands away from the male before the male comes up to temp--cool the male and the whole assembly and the bond will be exercised and sooner or later loosened. If the female is in a casting or larger body-heat quickly the male then let it cool-repeatedly if necessary. Heating will expend the male breaking the bond-cool it all and it will shrink from the female. A hole drilled THROUGH will make this method more sure as the male can shrink inward. Oxy acetylene torch with it's ability to pinpoint very high heat is about the best tool to use but I think if the electric welder is available, the use of carbon electrodes like arc air rods can pinpoint the heat application to male and female units. Nobody I know enjoys seized fasteners, pistons, shafts,etc. but if you think this expansion/contraction thing, your life will be easier and there id a certain satisfaction when you can win the battle and not wreck the part.
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Old 06-05-2019, 03:14:21 PM
Vanman Vanman is offline
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Default Re: Pesky Rusty Bolts

Agree completely with the above.

Electronics are very sensitive, finicky, and fragile that's for sure. And a car's ECU has lots of sensors remote to it. So it seems plausible that it could get fried if current is passed through parts that are not well bonded together, resulting in voltage being applied to various ECU inputs.

As long as the welding operation and ground clamp are not separated by any bolted joints along the way, I would not be overly concerned about it. But I certainly wouldn't connect the ground clamp to the engine, then weld on the frame for instance!
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Old 06-05-2019, 10:47:28 PM
Power Power is offline
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Default Re: Pesky Rusty Bolts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanman View Post
Agree completely with the above.

Electronics are very sensitive, finicky, and fragile that's for sure. And a car's ECU has lots of sensors remote to it. So it seems plausible that it could get fried if current is passed through parts that are not well bonded together, resulting in voltage being applied to various ECU inputs.

As long as the welding operation and ground clamp are not separated by any bolted joints along the way, I would not be overly concerned about it. But I certainly wouldn't connect the ground clamp to the engine, then weld on the frame for instance!
Think I would unplug ECU or any other fancy electronics to be sure, especially the air bag stuff.
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Old 06-06-2019, 12:02:08 AM
Railroads Railroads is offline
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Default Re: Pesky Rusty Bolts

The torch idea is tempting. But, I don't want to raise the temps of the stator to anything above 145 degrees F. Doing so risks the slot insulators and the wires. Some of these sets are wound with CCA wire. Not the most durable stuff.

I wrecked a 1/2hp DC motor heating the rusty rotor shaft nut. I ended up wrecking the commutator. The heat went up the rotor shaft from the nut being heated and ruined the glue holding the segments in place. That one failed spectacularly.

I might try carefully using a large punch or rod, and giving the long bolt a couple raps. I don't want to crack the plastic end bell either rapping on the bolt.

Robert
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Old 06-06-2019, 02:48:13 AM
mihit mihit is offline
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Default Re: Pesky Rusty Bolts

I ALWAYS disconnect the batteries when welding on vehicles. Mind you all the vehicles I own, and most I work on are old enough to not be full of computers and electronic carp.

My mate had some "surge protected" jumper leads he hooks up when welding on his. I don't quite get the science, but it seems to work for him.
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