Antique Engines and Old Iron
[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Library] - [Photo Gallery] - [Groups] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Links] - [Books] - [Sponsors] -

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® Shop Equipment Tools and Techniques > Machine Shop and Tool Talk
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Machine Shop and Tool Talk Shop Equipment, fabrication, repairs, how to fix it, which tool to use for the job. Machinist shop talk, straight to the point.

Machine Shop and Tool Talk

Polisher Restoration


this thread has 61 replies and has been viewed 3606 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 04-19-2017, 06:08:00 PM
930dreamer 930dreamer is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Amarillo, TX USA
Posts: 237
Thanks: 13
Thanked 60 Times in 40 Posts
Default Re: Polisher Restoration

Have you look here?; I have the type 303

Standard
Saf-T-Square guard with rear exhaust outlet, adjustable spark breaker, tool rest
Tool tray and water pot
Shaft holder
Electrics: 3 phase, 60 Hertz, 230/460 volts[/U] (specify operating voltage when ordering)


http://www.cincinnatielectrical.com/page16.html
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to 930dreamer For This Post:
Sponsored Links
  #12  
Old 04-19-2017, 10:36:33 PM
J.B. Castagnos J.B. Castagnos is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South Louisiana USA
Posts: 2,507
Thanks: 834
Thanked 3,290 Times in 1,027 Posts
Default Re: Polisher Restoration

It looks a lot like mine, got it from my old boss when he closed shop, said it was military surplus. It's three phase 220, the switch is triple throw. Cleaned the tag on it, only serial #, I think the info may have been painted on the steel tag. There were no guards, I'm installing some, sacrificed an old oxygen bottle. I quit using it because there were no guards, I got this Queen City to grind with, missed the buffer.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	grinder 1.JPG
Views:	119
Size:	112.1 KB
ID:	280468   Click image for larger version

Name:	grinder 2.JPG
Views:	114
Size:	111.9 KB
ID:	280469  
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to J.B. Castagnos For This Post:
  #13  
Old 04-20-2017, 12:17:43 AM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: San Marcos, Texas / McGill, Nevada
Posts: 4,364
Thanks: 5,191
Thanked 3,585 Times in 1,778 Posts
Default Re: Polisher Restoration

J.B.
Yep, thats it! Tag info is painted on mine too, serial# is the only thing stamped into tag, I'm contemplating stamping the info that is still legible into the tag. Any chance I can get a couple pics of how you are doing the guards? And of the tool holder, I'm not quite getting how those dogs on the side of pedestal hold that piece on. I'll have to fabricate the tool holder, that piece was missing too.

930dreamer
Is Cincinnati still in business? Do they offer parts support for older machines, or have spec info if you have the serial#?
__________________
Those who can see the invisible, can do the impossible
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-20-2017, 12:28:38 AM
s100 s100 is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
Posts: 825
Thanks: 204
Thanked 486 Times in 334 Posts
Default Re: Polisher Restoration

CET = Cincinnati Electric Tool Company.

If you have determined that the machine is in fact three phase then you don't need to remove the end bells. Those motors aren't really sealed so a bit of stuff will get in there. If it spins quiet and smooth, you probably dodged the bullet, and you are right, you can always dig in if/when you have to.

To make a a three phase motor start on single phase power, you need a large capacitor connected between the unused line and one of the other two lines. You also need some way to remove the capacitor from the circuit once the motor spins up, ideally a potential relay but a manual switch can do the job as well. If you don't remove the cap that winding will buck the others, a bad thing. At that point the motor is running, as another poster said, at 2/3 power. This may be improved by adding a smaller capacitor in parallel with the start capacitor, but of course you don't switch this one out as you do the start cap. A basic rule of thumb is 100MFD per horsepower for the big start capacitor and 10MFD per horsepower for the smaller run capacitor. This is a starting point not something handed down from the mount on tablets of stone.

This system has one major shortcoming. That is, the run capacitor is optimized for only one load. That makes this a good choice for motors that operate under a constant, continuous load. You add or remove capacitance until the voltage across all three legs match. But as soon as the load changes or is removed, the balance you achieved is lost and the voltages are wild again. In a situation like this you add a minimal amount of run capacitance, maybe enough to balance voltages when running at idle or a light load, and say you did the best you can.

Normally motors up to 3HP can be made to be self-starting with only the run capacitors, but only if they are easy starting (no loads and not much inertia) and even then they'll spin up slowly. It's an open question if you can get away with this if you have polishing wheels on your machine.My guess is if you try this, the capacitance needed to self start will be great enough to cause the wild leg to buck at light loads and at idle. Better to go with the start cap and potential relay.

The run capacitors MUST be oil filled but the start cap can be electrolytic if it's a motor starting capacitor. Of course oil filled caps work fine for starting as well. You should also add a bleeder resistor across each cap. This will keep yo uform getting zapped once you've removed the line power from the machine and think it's dead. Try a 1 Megohm of 1/2 or 1 watt.

The motor can in fact be used as a rotary converter to start another motor, but only one that is of equal or smaller horsepower. The second motor will improve the quality of three phase power to both motors. This is handy when you have something like a dust collector or something that will be running constantly. You can start and run the polisher or a grinder or who knows what, just as if you had a three phase line coming into your shop, assuming of course the dust collector is running. You can even start and run a third motor. There's some limit to how many amps you can pull through a setup like this, I'm dipped if I can remember what it is.

Hope any of this makes sense, and is helpful.

---------- Post added at 12:28:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:24:42 AM ----------

edit: You posted as I was bloviating.

As of about five or so years ago Cincinnati was still in business, but at that time they were merged somehow with SETCo, so the company was Cincinnati - Setco. Good folks and helpful. But be prepared, these are VERY expensive machines!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to s100 For This Post:
  #15  
Old 04-20-2017, 01:39:44 PM
J.B. Castagnos J.B. Castagnos is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South Louisiana USA
Posts: 2,507
Thanks: 834
Thanked 3,290 Times in 1,027 Posts
Default Re: Polisher Restoration

I did the buffer side first, just cut the top off of the oxygen bottle and attached with an angle iron brace under the motor, they weren't designed to have a guard on this side. The grinder side has a machined area, I cut the bottom of the oxygen bottle, put it in the lathe, drilled with a hole saw, bored to fit. I'll mill some pockets and drill and tap for set screws. The work rest will be similar to the Queen City in the picture.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	gg1.JPG
Views:	83
Size:	112.8 KB
ID:	280520   Click image for larger version

Name:	gg2.JPG
Views:	82
Size:	107.9 KB
ID:	280521   Click image for larger version

Name:	gg3.JPG
Views:	72
Size:	106.2 KB
ID:	280522  
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to J.B. Castagnos For This Post:
  #16  
Old 04-20-2017, 02:59:05 PM
Vanman Vanman is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Mission Viejo, California
Posts: 4,846
Thanks: 6,513
Thanked 2,084 Times in 1,423 Posts
Default Re: Polisher Restoration

Starting unloaded, I'm sure that we can come up with a suitable capacitance value that does not necessitate any switching. Calculate a value that will develop a little less than full load current on the derived line and call it good enough. In this type of application it really isn't critical.

Keith
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Vanman For This Post:
  #17  
Old 04-23-2017, 07:17:51 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: San Marcos, Texas / McGill, Nevada
Posts: 4,364
Thanks: 5,191
Thanked 3,585 Times in 1,778 Posts
Default Re: Polisher Restoration

Got the polisher on the work bench yesterday and did some checking on the wiring, best I can tell, if its 3 phase, its wired real funny. The switch is just a 2 pole switch, and third leg is always hot.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	polisher 3.jpg
Views:	65
Size:	118.6 KB
ID:	280747   Click image for larger version

Name:	polisher 4.jpg
Views:	57
Size:	122.9 KB
ID:	280748   Click image for larger version

Name:	polisher 5.jpg
Views:	70
Size:	115.6 KB
ID:	280749  
__________________
Those who can see the invisible, can do the impossible
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-23-2017, 08:55:09 PM
beezerbill beezerbill is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 1,156
Thanks: 179
Thanked 619 Times in 415 Posts
Default Re: Polisher Restoration

Shocking! (Sorry, had to say it.)

That switch arrangement would actually...work...with delta three phase but all the windings would be at the voltage of the unswitched leg with the switch open - just no current draw. But...this is total kludgomatic, and unsafe to boot. Need at least a three-pole switch, or even better a contactor arrangement so if the thing shuts off on a power outage, it doesn't turn back on by itself once the power comes back on. I like the nice old rotting wires - I occasionally see equipment run with wiring like that.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to beezerbill For This Post:
  #19  
Old 04-24-2017, 09:48:02 AM
posborne80 posborne80 is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Hendersonville, North Carolina
Posts: 17
Thanks: 0
Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts
Default Re: Polisher Restoration

Unless you have three phase voltage correct for the motor where you will use it (220/3), it could be somewhat pricey to make this work. Maybe you're a good scrounger with a good electrician friend. Don't ever think of using capacitors as an indication of voltage measurement. Wye or delta connected three phase doesn't matter here. Windings are hot with the current switch, true enough. Replace existing switch with three pole switch rated for the voltage. Replace that cord/plug arrangement with 4 prong plug/receptacle and 4 conductor cable with ground. Line voltage on the metal frame is the biggest concern here. Check line to ground (frame) with an ohmmeter. Various schemes to run this on single phase can be found on the web. Is it worth the trouble? Do you have another grinder? But, all that said, it would be cool to have that old boy turning. Just for fun, anyway. Be careful!

Paul
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-24-2017, 09:59:10 AM
tmg50 tmg50 is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Sturgis, Michigan, USA
Posts: 21
Thanks: 5
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Default Re: Polisher Restoration

Dalmationgirl, at one time it was code to only switch 2 legs of 3 phase to start and stop a motor. I have seen this done to run a small compressor with a manual motor and a pressure switch. The code was changed in the 60's to require 3 OL heaters and break all phases. You have to watch older items as this can and will get you in a bad situation if not paying attention.
steve
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to tmg50 For This Post:
Reply

Bookmarks


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump

Similar Threads Chosen at Random
Thread Thread Starter F o r u m Replies Last Post
Restoration Tip Gene Fisher Antique Gas Engine Discussion 3 06-12-2016 10:08:18 AM
Inexpensive Crankshaft Polisher Jim Parrott Machine Shop and Tool Talk 0 01-07-2016 11:57:13 AM
Oddball Piece Restoration Nearly Complete, Serial Tag Restoration Question bryani289swmi Small Air Cooled Gasoline Engines 2 04-15-2008 12:10:29 PM
Restoration Ed Welsh Antique Engine Archives 0 02-26-2003 03:59:02 PM


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:05:02 AM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2016 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277