Antique Tractors
[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Library] - [Photo Gallery] - [Groups] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Links] - [Books] - [Sponsors] -

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® Old Iron and Tractor Community > Antique Steel Wheel Tractors - Old Iron Lugs and Cleats
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Antique Steel Wheel Tractors - Old Iron Lugs and Cleats Photos and information about antique steel wheeled farm tractors. This is where to find the heaviest of Old Iron tractors.

Antique Steel Wheel Tractors - Old Iron Lugs and Cleats

Twin City 20-35 Prototype?


this thread has 65 replies and has been viewed 7766 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 01-14-2016, 01:11:50 PM
Tony Thompson Tony Thompson is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Glenville, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 2,470
Thanks: 7,915
Thanked 8,123 Times in 1,330 Posts
Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

Mark,
There is virtually no text and only a few pictures of the prototypes.
The few photos are notoriously mislabeled. Let us remember that many of these pictures are not pictures at all, they are drawings or artist's conceptions.
Having been through this over and over, my opinion is that the illusion you posted on #10 never existed.
MS&MC was in financial struggles from 1920-1923. This is when the twin cam crawler program was scrapped. Aside from the last few 40-65's being assembled, the only new machines on the table in this depression era was the 12-20 & 20-35. Spending had been cut back in all unnecessary areas.
Some more intuitive conjecture here...
Some where around 1919-1920 the boss tells the add department that he needs pictures of the new 20-35 for the sales department. There are no pictures yet, only blueprints in the drafting room that shows a 20-35 being bigger than a 12-20 but looking almost the same. Artist grabs the 12-20 literature and stretches things out a bit, adds a big ole starting crank, places 20-35 at bottom of radiator and viola...the first drawings of the new tractor are conceived!
Sound crazy, an opinion, one theory...Indeed, however, the history and financial condition of the whole factory does provide clues into what may have happened. You are looking for multiple clear photographs of a prototype machine that may never have been taken, only drawn up on a hasty budget.
Even after the regular production of the rare early short fenders had been built there is very little photographic documentation of the whole low production run.
This is why I view the TC 20-35 as an ultimate collector piece. It is a grossly under-rated bad-ass bruiser that was engineered well above most others in the late teens and much of its production run is shrouded in a rather intoxicating haze of mystery.
I gave up the search you are on years ago after digging through the MN history center archives for hours and days and finding no more information to put on my website. Circulating literature shows up occasionally, but it is usually another mislabeled, poorly executed drawing like we have been trying to pick apart on this thread.
I have no solid dates or good pictures of the extinct prototypes. There may have only been a couple built to pave the way for regular production?
I hope you find a 20-35 to add in your collection some day!
Tony
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Tony Thompson For This Post:
Sponsored Links
  #22  
Old 01-14-2016, 11:38:21 PM
Mark Schneider Mark Schneider is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Carrington, North Dakota
Posts: 1,101
Thanks: 1,816
Thanked 2,715 Times in 696 Posts
Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

Tony...I appreciate your view points and the research that you did back when it was not very easy to get it done. The computer searches certainly speed things up these days. I make use of your website on a regular basis.

My own view is that the illustration on post #10 would be reasonably accurate as the artist that made it was more than likely an employee of MS&M Co. and would have nothing to gain by doing a poor job. If this illustration was indeed an artist's rendition of blueprint information it undoubtedly would have sent back to the engineering department for an accuracy check. My own opinion is that the artist was viewing an actual tractor when the drawing was made. There are too many dimensional difference between the 12-20 and the 20-35 to make a chance illustration that would be reasonably accurate. The basic dimensions are good and we have no trouble identifying the model. There are however details that are unfamiliar to us and after 95 years the ability to verify them is both challenging and interesting.

So on to something more interesting. I stumbled on this picture of an early short fender 20-35. I think the flat iron brace that goes from fender to fender in the front would place this unit in the first 100 made for public sale. It also answered one of my questions about the possibility of the "pogo spring" on the front axle. The upper spring mount is plain to see on this tractor so it seems likely that this feature was on the prototypes. No doubt the idea of a 4 1/2 ton tractor with the wide front end held on by two sliding bolts didn't pan out too well during the field testing.

TB-2026 appears to be the spring. It is in the 20-35 parts book illustrations but I can't find it in the text. It would probably show up an early 12-20 parts book.

I've got a long ways to go before a 20-35 shows up in my yard!...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Twin City 20-35 011D.jpg
Views:	161
Size:	202.5 KB
ID:	243811   Click image for larger version

Name:	Twin City 20-35 012D.jpg
Views:	133
Size:	187.7 KB
ID:	243812  
Reply With Quote
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Mark Schneider For This Post:
  #23  
Old 01-15-2016, 01:01:03 PM
Jeff Blaney Jeff Blaney is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Beeton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 740
Thanks: 1,907
Thanked 1,090 Times in 354 Posts
Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

That's a great picture Mark, thanks.
Was that exhaust pipe standard on the early 20-35 tractors? That too appears to be a 12-20 feature carried over to 20-35 production.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Jeff Blaney For This Post:
  #24  
Old 01-15-2016, 11:35:14 PM
Mark Schneider Mark Schneider is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Carrington, North Dakota
Posts: 1,101
Thanks: 1,816
Thanked 2,715 Times in 696 Posts
Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

Jeff...There's two basic fuel setups on the early 20-35's. The 20-35 pictured above has the Holley All Fuel carburetor that utilizes a vaporizing coil in the exhaust manifold. This arrangement was basically the same as the 12-20's only everything is larger. That exhaust outlet would be a real treat for the poor fellow elected to put the belt on the pulley!

The other fuel blender is the Hotspot manifold. This one plumbed the exhaust gas to the intake manifold for the preheat and exited on the right side of the tractor. There is an excellent picture of an early setup on Pat Bayer's post #15. The same Holley carburetor was employed but without the coil.

I don't know which fuel system worked better than the other but I do know the guy putting on the belt chose the Hotspot hands down!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Twin City 20-35 013D.jpg
Views:	72
Size:	164.6 KB
ID:	243864   Click image for larger version

Name:	Twin City 20-35 014D.jpg
Views:	68
Size:	145.4 KB
ID:	243865   Click image for larger version

Name:	Twin City 20-35 015D.jpg
Views:	41
Size:	72.9 KB
ID:	243866  
Reply With Quote
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Mark Schneider For This Post:
  #25  
Old 01-16-2016, 11:46:00 AM
Jeff Blaney Jeff Blaney is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Beeton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 740
Thanks: 1,907
Thanked 1,090 Times in 354 Posts
Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

Yes, that hot exhaust blowing down your backside wouldn't be very pleasant.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Jeff Blaney For This Post:
  #26  
Old 01-16-2016, 12:41:53 PM
Russ Hamm's Avatar
Russ Hamm Russ Hamm is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Canton, Kansas, USA
Posts: 1,514
Thanks: 1,033
Thanked 2,348 Times in 783 Posts
Images: 1
Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

I'm learning more here every day.
When i was 14 my uncle bought two Twin City tractors. He offered one of them to me for 75 dollars but i couldn't get my dad to loan me the money, he said; "what do you want old stuff like that for, we were glad when we got rid of it." I know the one TC he kept was a 17-28 as he still has it and is going to sell out and move to town this year, i'm going to buy that one.
The one he offered to me had wide rear wheels i remember and was in really poor shape and stuck. Now with these pictures i'm finally sure it was a 20-35. My uncle sold it back then to a local junker/hoarder and i heard tell he still has it. This man buys a lot of old tractors and parks them in his pasture, he's about 80 or so now.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Russ Hamm For This Post:
  #27  
Old 01-16-2016, 02:36:58 PM
Tony Thompson Tony Thompson is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Glenville, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 2,470
Thanks: 7,915
Thanked 8,123 Times in 1,330 Posts
Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

Mark's post #22 shows closeups for details,
Here is the whole page from a road builder add.

2nd photo shows 20-35 pulling many wagons. This one has fender extensions to cover wide wheels.

3rd picture is 20-35 specially equipped with lights and some rather beefy looking wood wheels!
Where do you suppose this photo was taken ?

Information on the early short fender 20-35 is in short supply and I have enjoyed this thread, thank you Mark Schneider
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Twin City Files.jpg
Views:	117
Size:	195.5 KB
ID:	243884   Click image for larger version

Name:	20-35 TC photo.jpg
Views:	111
Size:	35.1 KB
ID:	243885   Click image for larger version

Name:	20-35 industrial.jpg
Views:	140
Size:	32.0 KB
ID:	243886  
Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Tony Thompson For This Post:
  #28  
Old 01-16-2016, 05:19:13 PM
J Ware J Ware is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Morrice, Michigan
Posts: 590
Thanks: 309
Thanked 915 Times in 332 Posts
Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

So Tony, would they have considered the tractor in the third picture an industrial, even though it is in this piece of literature. Or was this their beginning of their industrial line? Jim
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-16-2016, 06:49:52 PM
Tony Thompson Tony Thompson is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Glenville, Minnesota, USA
Posts: 2,470
Thanks: 7,915
Thanked 8,123 Times in 1,330 Posts
Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

Hi Jim,
These photos are from separate sources and were not all in the road building literature if that is what you are asking.

I have it listed on my website as an industrial under the factory options button because original literature shows 12-20's from the same time frame with rubber over wood listed as such.
That poor photo of unknown origin would date somewhere around 1920 as I see early features on it.
This thread is dealing with early prototype and short fender 20-35's and we will be hard pressed to come up with much more than what has already been posted. I check in here each day in hopes that a member will post something we have not seen yet
After the short fenders (around 1921 through 1925) there are lots more photographs and original literature of regular production to enjoy.
Tony
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Tony Thompson For This Post:
  #30  
Old 01-17-2016, 12:22:47 AM
Mark Schneider Mark Schneider is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Carrington, North Dakota
Posts: 1,101
Thanks: 1,816
Thanked 2,715 Times in 696 Posts
Default Re: Twin City 20-35 Prototype?

Tony..I did not know that the picture on post #22 was part of an ad. I only came across the photo. That ad brings up yet another question...

Were the 20-35's that were fitted with the Pierce governors ever offered for public sale?
I noticed that Pat Bayer's # 3214 is outfitted with the Twin City governor and I can't find any evidence in the parts book that any 20-35 after serial #3200 had a Pierce governor installed. If the illustration on the grader ad is a representation of the actual tractor on the grader then that tractor would probably fall in the pre #3200 range and would actually be a prototype.

I found this "debut" article on the 20-35 in an archived copy of "Tractor World" in May of 1921. That illustration is the same one that was in my parts book (post #10). The article lists the rear wheel width as 20" which the illustration clearly isn't. More on that later.

I really liked that photo you posted of the 20-35 pulling the loaded grain wagons. Imagine careening along at 2.99 mph with that load! Those fender extensions would be real life necessities if operating in loose dirt and wind. I took the liberty to expand it for detail.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Twin City 20-35 020D.jpg
Views:	65
Size:	251.7 KB
ID:	243954   Click image for larger version

Name:	Twin City 20-35 016D.jpg
Views:	84
Size:	59.7 KB
ID:	243955  

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 01-17-2016 at 12:32:53 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Mark Schneider For This Post:
Reply

Bookmarks


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump

Similar Threads Chosen at Random
Thread Thread Starter F o r u m Replies Last Post
Twin City 17-28...My Intiation into the Twin Cam Faternity! Mark Schneider Antique Steel Wheel Tractors - Old Iron Lugs and Cleats 120 06-01-2018 09:21:55 AM
Twin City KTA ozfarm Antique Steel Wheel Tractors - Old Iron Lugs and Cleats 0 07-24-2014 09:10:50 PM
Twin City KT Ben Zimmerer Antique Steel Wheel Tractors - Old Iron Lugs and Cleats 3 06-17-2014 11:11:19 PM
My first Twin City Rick Schmitz Antique Steel Wheel Tractors - Old Iron Lugs and Cleats 180 04-24-2014 03:19:16 PM
Twin City KTA ssimntih Antique Steel Wheel Tractors - Old Iron Lugs and Cleats 18 07-02-2011 09:58:18 PM


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:00:15 PM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2016 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277