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Another Austral Joins the Collection.


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  #21  
Old 01-21-2015, 04:48:46 AM
Alastair Geddes. Alastair Geddes. is offline
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

heres the wiki page on it, you can research it in other ways as well, books etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ductile_iron
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  #22  
Old 01-21-2015, 08:54:03 AM
G. Harris G. Harris is offline
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

Patrick,

been looking at your pictures of the damaged flywheels, they might be salvageable. If you can establish that the cracks are travelling to meet up thus breaking out a piece of the hub, you'd be able to machine the hub off completely on the damaged side, and as long as no cracks are visible thru the spokes to the other side (crack test powder as a minimum) there'd be enough solid spoke and good side of hub to bolt a new hub on, turned out of BMS steel, one 3/4 bolt per tapped spoke hole. It would be visible as a repair, but a good solid one, and would keep much of your original pin-striping intact. A chunk of 6" round bar would cost you $50, and need access to a vertical mill (to mill off the old hub and flat-face the spokes a bit, rotary table to index 6x 3/4 holes for cap screws) and a mid-size lathe for the new hub (not the whole flywheel), could work. You'd have to weigh that up against new castings with machining if you can't find an original pair of course.

Graham
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  #23  
Old 01-21-2015, 05:20:16 PM
Paul Richardson Paul Richardson is offline
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G. Harris View Post
It would be visible as a repair, but a good solid one, and would keep much of your original pin-striping intact. A chunk of 6" round bar would cost you $50, and need access to a vertical mill (to mill off the old hub and flat-face the spokes a bit, rotary table to index 6x 3/4 holes for cap screws) and a mid-size lathe for the new hub (not the whole flywheel), could work. You'd have to weigh that up against new castings with machining if you can't find an original pair of course.

Graham
That's the idea that appeals to me personally,of keeping the originals,and even a little more work or forethought might hide the new work.But don't ask me to do it!?
Thinking again about castings,...the wheels are not as big a diameter or profile as I first thought.
Apart from the outer face on a new set, a similar amount of machining on a repair might be needed to get going again?
That price on newies if/when the time comes,..might actually tell the story.
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  #24  
Old 01-23-2015, 09:13:08 PM
Wayne Timms Wayne Timms is offline
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick M Livingstone View Post
I am told that my new engine is one that may have been recovered by your father many years ago.
If it is the engine I'm thinking of, then the crankshaft has a pretty bad twist in it. This engine would require more than just repairing or replacing the wheels.

The flywheels do appear to be a fair way out of line.

Wayne

www.bluefuel-whitesmoke.com
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  #25  
Old 01-24-2015, 02:14:31 AM
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Patrick M Livingstone Patrick M Livingstone is offline
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Timms View Post
If it is the engine I'm thinking of, then the crankshaft has a pretty bad twist in it. This engine would require more than just repairing or replacing the wheels. The flywheels do appear to be a fair way out of line. Wayne www.bluefuel-whitesmoke.com
Most of the flywheel misalignment is from the flywheels riding up over the keys, which is also the cause of the damage to the hubs. The crankshaft itself is about 2º out of alignment which is not unusual in an Austral. Loose flywheels is something that R-T seems to have been aware of as in Engine Book No.1 there is a section headed "Look out for loose fly-wheels". Here is another early one with misaligned spokes due to flywheels moving on the keys. This one has not got as far as cracking the hubs but the keyways are a little battered. Patrick
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Old 01-25-2015, 12:55:15 AM
isandian isandian is offline
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Hi Patrick, This is a most interesting discussion! I am far from expert, but have a little experience which I will describe.
Some years back I broke the hub of my Lanz Bulldog clutch side flywheel when removing it. I was faced with a unique style of flywheel that was irreplaceable, so had to devise a repair with the help of a couple of local workshops.
I had it welded, then the outer part of the hub turned down until parallel, then a steel sleeve made and shrunk on. The bore of the flywheel and the keyway were very bad from having been loose and flogging, so the next step was to bore out the flywheel a bit deeper than the key, make up a steel sleeve to bring it back to size, fit it with Loctite and scotch keys, then broach a new keyway. I actually had to make a stepped key also, because the key slot in the shaft had to be widened and deepened. It has worked fine.
I would be happy to introduce you to the local workshops. They are not hugely expensive and quite like helping us restorers out.
At least it is another perspective on the problem. It is important to preserve the original flywheels if at all possible.
Regards, Ian
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  #27  
Old 01-25-2015, 06:35:36 AM
Michaely Michaely is offline
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

Hi Patrick,

I have been following the thread with interest. This is my personal view only and not everyone will agree but if it were mine, I'd be doing everything I could to preserve the flywheels you have. The original finish and stripping is special. The damage to the hubs looks ugly - very. But it still looks repairable to me. An option for repair is metal stitching - either of the damaged parts you have or for the refixing of a newly cast hub.

I have had metal stitching repairs undertaken on a few seemingly impossible parts that needed to be right - i.e. they couldn't fail or the engine was going to be toast. It is an very expensive technique so I wouldn't bother with the Moffat Virtue if I were you. (Sorry to the MV fans)

Rather than me try and explain - suggest you search "metalock". There are others but this is one I know locally. Can give you contact numbers etc. if you are interested.

Mike
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  #28  
Old 01-25-2015, 07:03:19 AM
Alastair Geddes. Alastair Geddes. is offline
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

thats a good repair the above situation with flogged out keyways may need a sleeve and a similar repair to what you have done with yours.
You will find the flywheel will have fretted on the crankshaft and is now slightly looser fit than it should be.
You would have to make the keyway wider in the crankshaft just enough to clean it up, this necessitates a stepped key, or oversize key which is not a standard size key steel stock.
The crankshaft will need to be checked for size, hopefully the only wear will be on the bore of the flywheels.
with those badly cracked ones of his first one sometimes its safer to cast newies even though its a little bit dearer, done right first time.
You will also see that the cracks on the pre repair come from the corner of the keyway in the flywheel.
There is several ways to weld cast the most common with MMAW ( arc ) is done with a 99% nickel rod not a cast rod as its difficult to heat the casting up to weld with oxy acetylene and use a true cast rod for true cast iron welding.
You can powder weld it was well but again this is with nickel powder.
Any oil contamination or oil soaked cast on it will make it have porosity in the weld and is difficult to stop this happening i have found unless you cook it out by heating it up to a high temp.
When you fit the repair you want as i said earlier small radii in the hub keyway and fit the key tight on the sides and tight on the top, measure the key in the shaft and compare the hight to the hub ( use micrometers to do this ) and press on the flywheel, you will need to scrap the keys by draw filing or machine them to exact size. I would make the key size to size on the top to 0.0005" tight with preference for a little tight.
Its the only thing you can do to keep it from happening again, 0ld items went to tapered gib head keys and sometime two gib heads at 90 degrees appart , the modern fix is the taper lock bushing which is easier to fit and holds well.
The early stuff didn't and have seen this problem before.
The engine once finished has to be safe to operate and safe enough that you will stand or your family will stand in front of the flywheel so you have to guarantee your work even if you sell the engine, your still responsible as you did the repair so you have to think of this when doing work.

---------- Post added at 10:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:51 PM ----------

i just noted a new post - metal stitching is commonly used on cast iron cylinder heads, the areas that crack means there is inbuilt tension in the casting when made so a crack develops with heat and added thermal stresses.
metal stiching method overlaps small tapered threaded plugs and put the area into compression and seals on the tight fit of the tapered threads much like old BSPT threads seal.
it has it uses but i would not use it on flywheels anywhere as you can put added tension on areas that have reduced tension carrying capacity due to the crack.
the steel band that was shrunk on the flywheel hub puts the hub into compression which cast iron likes and is good at but metal stitching it does the opposite.
You have to think of each "stitch" as a little wedge, which they are then you have to look at what metal will hold the tension you are going to apply.
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  #29  
Old 01-25-2015, 07:10:44 PM
Paul Richardson Paul Richardson is offline
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

An old and probably forgotten practice now was to remold and recast part of a large casting that had failed it's first pour.
Once again don't ask me to do it,and perhaps the process has its limitations,such as the centre of a spoked wheel like that?
I had a very good foundry operator explain the process to me.At times a huge investment of time and heating energy goes into a large item.He gave me a rough outline of how they used to try at times to rescue a failed pour where possible.
In short,if a large and or intricate casting came out of the sand being a great result except for a portion that failed,the portion in question was remolded rather than the full 'start from scratch' molding of the whole item again.
A channel is made like a small gutter to carry the molten iron away from the repair as a bleed for the process.When the foundry man was satisfied with his progress,by using probes etc into the mold, the outlet channel was then closed to continue the pour.I'm sure that process would have it's limitations.
I'm not suggesting that's your answer Patrick,but simply throwing the idea out there,and to interest readers.I personally think it would be a little scarey,but then I'm not the foundry expert.The Bulldog hub here is not the first that I have known of to be glued.I know of one LL Crossley having used a similar repair.The stitching idea also would worth investigating to find out what is out there already having used that process.It's a pretty versatile and super strong process from what I have seen, and repairs can easily be made to completely hide.Your stitching could in effect become the glue for a big diameter sleeve and the stitching itself could be applied well into the guts of the centre rather than imagining using them out in the edge area of the hub itself.Those are things to think about until your original wheels show up!
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  #30  
Old 01-27-2015, 04:34:18 AM
Michaely Michaely is offline
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

metal stiching method overlaps small tapered threaded plugs and put the area into compression and seals on the tight fit of the tapered threads much like old BSPT threads seal.
it has it uses but i would not use it on flywheels anywhere as you can put added tension on areas that have reduced tension carrying capacity due to the crack.


The metal stitching technique I am referring to uses a metal
"bridge" (my term, not sure what the right word is) inserted into a slot created by drilling a series of overlapping holes across the crack or break. It can be used on parts that have completely separated. The bridge is made of a soft steel alloy that after inserted into the crack is peened or worked into place. T his causes the bridge to work harden and create a very strong repair - If my memory serves me right today up to 5 tonne per bridge of tensile strength for a 6mm size. After the bridges are inserted then a series of overlapping holes are drilled along the crack or break with threaded rod inserted into each. I guess this is would push apart the crack but works against the bridges to tie it firmly together. Pics are of a Tangye repair - before and after.

I'm not saying this Patricks answer but it might be. Unless of course the Austral wreck on ebay at the moment has wheels the right size. Could solve the problem.
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