Antique Engines and Old Iron
[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Library] - [Photo Gallery] - [Groups] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Links] - [Books] - [Sponsors] -

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® General Discussion > Smokstak Down Under
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Smokstak Down Under For Australia and New Zealand Smokstakers to meet, greet, yabber and yack.

Smokstak Down Under

Howard Rojector Pump


this thread has 21 replies and has been viewed 857 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-07-2018, 08:55:05 AM
rodneyt rodneyt is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: now at albany western australia
Posts: 93
Thanks: 86
Thanked 41 Times in 34 Posts
Default Howard Rojector Pump

Introduced to the market at the 1964 Orange NSW field days,
the Rojector pump is/was another of the many oz Howard products.

apart from this brochure and a very brief news article in the Howard Rotavator News, 1964 Summer edition,
i have no more info on it.

hey Inter Bloke 'I have seen a lot of pumps !' can you tell me anything about these?
anybody got any in their collections, or still in use?

ta Rod.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf rojectorpumpkirbylausenbrochure25pc.pdf (210.3 KB, 109 views)
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to rodneyt For This Post:
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 10-08-2018, 03:08:43 AM
Craig Gillingham Craig Gillingham is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 453
Thanks: 292
Thanked 526 Times in 230 Posts
Default Re: Howard Rojector pump

Rod,

slightly off topic, however, following on about odd Howard products is this photo of a chain-drive Fordson rotary hoe.

the photo came from here:
https://collections.slsa.sa.gov.au/r...RG+1258/2/2644
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	FRH.jpg
Views:	81
Size:	134.2 KB
ID:	320379  
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Craig Gillingham For This Post:
  #3  
Old 10-08-2018, 08:19:59 AM
rodneyt rodneyt is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: now at albany western australia
Posts: 93
Thanks: 86
Thanked 41 Times in 34 Posts
Default Re: Howard Rojector pump

Wow, amazing to see that

I have only been looking for that photo since 2011, when after studying the patent ,
and then seeing the books pictures of the 'Howard Side Shaft PTO' driven Fordson model Howard Rotary Hoe,
I had been asking everybody 'did Howards ever make any with a front chain drive like in the patent?'

[Aust. Patent 19058/24 (1924019058)]
[1925 - 1926 USA patent US1574654 drawing 3]

one of a handful of unanswerable questions!

only 2 months ago I was told about a restored machine when talking to an ebay seller,
now have some photos of that, the first actual 'proof' they existed. in Victoria,
if anybody has good photos of it at a rally, feel welcome to put one here...
im not sure if the owner wants to be world famous just yet,
he is going to get me some better photos when he takes it to the next suitable local rally.
so far as he knows it is the only decent survivor,
which he did do some serious rebuilding to, to restore it to fully functional.
it was restored 20 years ago, obviously i dont get out enough,
it took 7 years for me to find, and somehow escaped the attention of 99% of other Howard enthusiasts.
20 years ago when searching for parts, he was sent a photo of a very rusty wreck in PNG,
and was told of another near Sydney,
but that one has never been proven to him to actually exist,
it might have been an 'ordinary' side shaft PTO drive model.
we would both like to find some more of these chain drive machines.

this is a most significant machine, it is the one which got the Howard Patent Rotary Hoe
in 'mass production' and the company financially viable.
production numbers are not known, but it is recorded that only about 4 units per week
was the most that could be made at the Moss Vale factory,
production did continue into 1927 when they moved to Northmead,
Northmead was a much better factory, i expect production was at least twice as fast.

the side shaft pto was patented in 1928,
so the maths says
4 x 50weeks = 200
1924, 1925, 1926, is 3 x 200 = 600 possible maximum made in Moss Vale,
1927, 1928, is 2 x 400 = 800 possible maximum made in Northmead.
total is 1400 maximum.
very likely much less, the PTO patent is dated 1928, production of the side shaft models
would have begun well before the end of 1928,
just in time to fill dealers yards when the early Fordson production was halted for the big move!

lets say maybe only 200 of the chain drive model were made in 1928,
and Moss Vale made an average of 3 per week, the more realistic maths is
3 x 50 = 150
150 x 3 = 450
+ 400, + 200
= 1050 probable actual production of the first version of the Fordson model of Howard Rotary Hoe.

it is also recorded that sales increased year by year,
especially after the move to Northmead.
therefore 1050 could also be a realistic minimum.
so with quite a few actually made, there should be a few more survivors somewhere?

here is a clue, listen up everybody, this model only replaced the flat belt pulley on the tractor with a chain cog.
unlike the side shaft pto model, which replaced the whole pulley drive unit with
Howards own sideshaft drive bevel gearbox unit.
has anybody seen an old Fordson with a cog on the pulley shaft?
that might be all that is left after the hoe had been taken off and parked somewhere else.
the cog is not an ordinary cog for a roller chain, it is a fine tooth gear cog,
for the 'silent drive chain' which is a multi layered links chain with internal protruding teeth lugs to engage the gear cog.
if you know what i mean... just like what was often used for car engine timing chains.
if such a gear cog is seen on a tractor pulley shaft,
leave no junkheap unturned as you search for the Rotavator.

also put in an order to all personnel with connections, please find an owner's manual.
the restored machine owner has been given a photocopy of a manual which had no cover,
but he has been unable to find an original, or any other copy.
even that photocopy looks like a photocopy of a photocopy,
the people who had that copy now have nothing.

2 documents with reference to this chain primary drive model had come my way during 2017,
but while i believed they were referring to this very first model,
they were not 100% clear in the way they were written, so did not make 'proof'.

i have spent much time searching everywhere online for a photo like this,
i still expect there should be more out there,
this was a fantastic new product and should have been prime target for photographers,
but all ive turned up are text articles which mainly tell of the actual rotary hoe action, all fair enough,
but disappointing when there is a reason to want to know more.

it has been a long slow wait, thanks heaps, gunna have to print this picture and frame it!
knowing what it is, it is crazy how a search of that website for 'Howard', 'Fordson',
and 'Rotary Hoe' do not find it.

just last week i sent a message to nla about a photo in the Hood collection,
of the Howard Rolling Dolly Washer / hand operated mechanical washing machine,
my link to it didn't work, but it was still there under the photo number, the topic was 'women'
because there was a lady standing next to one of the machines,
the photo is clearly about the washing machine, 2 on display,
advertising signs on the wall around, and the verandah area it is in can be seen in the
main 2 photos of the Howard display at the 1936 Royal Show at Sydney.
i spelt all that out, and asked them to please add more topics,
so Howard Auto Cultivators and Rolling Dolly and Washing Machine searches will find it.
they have sent a reply saying my request has been passed on, and will be investigated, a good start.

choose a motto: 'the search continues' 'never give up' 'always hope'
'its not what you know, but who you know'

thanks again Craig, I am having an early Christmas
actually, im not sorry if ive put everybody else to sleep...
that photo is worth a thousand words!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-08-2018, 09:23:30 AM
rodneyt rodneyt is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: now at albany western australia
Posts: 93
Thanks: 86
Thanked 41 Times in 34 Posts
Default Re: Howard Rojector pump

a vague memory of a serial number on an owner's manual got me looking thru them again,
sure enough, the 1937 edition of the side shaft model has
'Applies to cultivators from 1588 onwards'
a later edition has 'from Serial No. 1588 to 5307'

this possibly tells us there was maximum of 1587 of the old chain drive type made,
possibly less if they started counting from 10 or 11 or 100 or 101,
as they sometimes did for later machines.
1587 is a nice fit for what seems to be a reasonable maximum production quantity,
based on the other bits of info found.
a higher number should give us more hope of finding another one?

cheers Rodney.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-08-2018, 04:07:18 PM
Darryl Darryl is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Gunbower, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 781
Thanks: 258
Thanked 756 Times in 365 Posts
Default Re: Howard Rojector pump

The fordson in the photo has done alot of work at the time the photo was taken if you look at all the wheels. I wonder if they put a new rotavator on an old tractor to show the presumably new implement ?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-08-2018, 09:34:51 PM
Craig Gillingham Craig Gillingham is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 453
Thanks: 292
Thanked 526 Times in 230 Posts
Default Re: Howard Rojector Pump

Rod,

I've seen the restored chain-drive rotary hoe, but I haven't got a photo to post of it, sorry. Another weird one I found recently was this Howard sales brochure for a PTO to fit an F model Fordson. It's not one I had seen before, and reading the brochure, they sold at least one. I hadn't realised until now that it's possibly the same chain-drive setup off the belt pulley as the rotary hoe.

I agree the Fordson has had a bit of use. I'm not sure what year it is, as it's got the Holley 280 manifold which dates from 1921-22-23? there are some Fordson experts on Smokstak that'll know for sure. It's a great photo, as everyone's got a hat and the driver has his flying goggles on his hat.

The rest of the brochure is here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/948547...7640443214013/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/948547...7640443214013/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/948547...7640443214013/
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	fpto.jpg
Views:	34
Size:	177.1 KB
ID:	320425  
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Craig Gillingham For This Post:
  #7  
Old 10-09-2018, 09:36:19 AM
rodneyt rodneyt is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: now at albany western australia
Posts: 93
Thanks: 86
Thanked 41 Times in 34 Posts
Default Re: Howard Rojector pump

Darryl,
"I wonder if they put a new rotavator on an old tractor to show the presumably new implement ?"
makes sense to me, far easier to cart only the hoe around,
find a local with a Fordson, a potential customer etc,
a local farmer will be able to give a qualified opinion of how the hoe compares the normal plows on his farm, all good.
also -whatif- , risk management etc,
what if this new machine will break the tractor, especially the pto?
...better to break an old tractor than a new one?
if the half worn out tractor handles it ok, we can all relax, its safe to use!

---------- Post added at 09:36:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:10:16 PM ----------

Craig:
"Another weird one I found recently was this Howard sales brochure for a PTO to fit an F model Fordson. It's not one I had seen before, and reading the brochure, they sold at least one. I hadn't realised until now that it's possibly the same chain-drive setup off the belt pulley as the rotary hoe."

I have also thought it would have been.
again thanks for the brochure, and the flickr guy...(he has been busy scanning stuff,
i just got a couple more PF old Howard ads from there)
the chain pto brochure is gold,
the only other actual picture of one i have is in Dr.G Quick's book Australian Tractors etc.

Patent application dated 1926 March 15.
[Aust. Patent 993/26 (1926000993)]
includes a 2-way swivel connection in a jackshaft tube with universal joint in jackshaft over hitch point to allow tractor
steering and also uneven ground twisting of machinery.

try this link:
http://pericles.ipaustralia.gov.au/o...nNo=1926000993
click on
'specification/e-Register'
to get dropdown box with link to actual patent document,
study the drawing of where the shaft goes over the drawbar,
there's an identifying feature if ever you find one in a junkheap while searching for a silent-chain-drive rotary hoe.

this pto is on my 'probably extinct', not yet found list,
also i have not seen or heard of an owners manual, / fitting instructions sheet / whatever,
for this machine either.
I don't expect one to be found based on the fact that if they were not completely worn out and broken,
the chains and cogs would likely find uses elsewhere.

cheers Rod.

well how about that, it has been so long since ive looked at that patent,
the drawings seem to show a normal roller chain and chain cogs throughout.
so now we have another clue, depending on whether we find a ordinary chain cog or gear type cog,
we will know what type of Howard we are looking for in the junkheaps?
it is always possible both types of chains were used at different times,
another case of 'we don't know what we don't know'

Last edited by rodneyt; 10-09-2018 at 10:16:54 AM. Reason: more info
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to rodneyt For This Post:
  #8  
Old 10-09-2018, 10:00:23 AM
rodneyt rodneyt is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: now at albany western australia
Posts: 93
Thanks: 86
Thanked 41 Times in 34 Posts
Default Re: Howard Rojector Pump

it seems the Fordson photo from Waikerie is not one the set from the oz Roma oil trial.
I tried a few different TROVE searches, I could only find a single back view picture.
so where would all the original newspaper photos be stashed?
sorry for poor quality, these are from old newspapers off Trove, at least they are small file size.
note the text article says there are a series of photos going around,
where are the others....
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	1928feb24-horshamtimesvic-p5-fordsonromaoil-rotaryhoe.jpg
Views:	11
Size:	24.0 KB
ID:	320464   Click image for larger version

Name:	1927nov28-farmersettler-sydneynsw-p13-fordsonromaoil-rotaryhoe-largestsize.jpg
Views:	30
Size:	58.9 KB
ID:	320465  
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to rodneyt For This Post:
  #9  
Old 10-10-2018, 02:08:12 AM
Craig Gillingham Craig Gillingham is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 453
Thanks: 292
Thanked 526 Times in 230 Posts
Default Re: Howard Rojector Pump

Rod, thank you for the link to the IP website, it's very interesting. There are a couple of other patents I'm going to look up. That Howard patent drawing gives a better idea of how that PTO drive system worked, basically a big uni-joint across the back end of the Fordson. I would agree it's on the 'not yet found' list, but not necessarily extinct. I think there's always a chance there could be one, somewhere.

Last edited by Craig Gillingham; 10-10-2018 at 02:09:21 AM. Reason: spelling
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Craig Gillingham For This Post:
  #10  
Old 10-10-2018, 05:46:18 PM
Scotty 2 Scotty 2 is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Warwick, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 2,410
Thanks: 1,535
Thanked 1,715 Times in 932 Posts
Default Re: Howard Rojector Pump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Gillingham View Post
It's a great photo, as everyone's got a hat and the driver has his flying goggles on his hat.
What about the lad on the extreme right? Hat, tie, coat and garters.
I wonder what the big tall fella is thinking?

Cheers Scott
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump

Similar Threads Chosen at Random
Thread Thread Starter F o r u m Replies Last Post
Howard rototiller on CL gvasale Garden Tractors / Mowers / Scooters 9 05-27-2018 01:07:09 PM
HOWARD 200 Rotavator steeleye Smokstak Down Under 1 03-26-2015 08:23:41 AM
Howard Gem earlyevo Garden Tractors / Mowers / Scooters 2 03-19-2015 09:40:43 PM
Howard Gem/Sachs diesel pump problem help please. Mossstock Vintage Diesel and Oil Engines 7 09-11-2013 01:38:52 AM
Howard Weaver not well W.P.Klein Oil Field Engines & Related Equipment 17 12-23-2007 12:48:37 PM


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:56:32 PM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2016 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277