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Fordson Wehr Governor Oil Level + Trans Oil Questions


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  #1  
Old 04-09-2017, 10:55:42 AM
Nik M Nik M is offline
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Default Fordson Wehr Governor Oil Level + Trans Oil Questions

Does anyone know the type, weight, and amount or level of oil to use in an accessory Wehr governor on a Fordson F? It's the style in the attached image. There is a filler at the top and a drain screw on the other side, but I don't see a level plug. Do you just fill it to the top?

While I'm at it, I gather that I should use 600w steam cylinder oil in the rear end due to modern gear lubes being incompatible with bronze. Does anyone know the difference between Mobil 600w and Mobil 600w Super? It looks like Super might be a little higher in SAE equivalent viscosity, but beats me.

Thanks!
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Old 04-09-2017, 08:54:24 PM
Ed Bezanson Ed Bezanson is offline
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Default Re: Fordson Wehr Governor Oil Level + Trans Oil Questions

Dear Nik I have just gotten 2 of these Governors one tagged Wehr and the other marked Apollo in a trade deal. I just went back down to the shop and took the Apollo apart to see what we are dealing with. That oiler cap on top is just for an occasional squirt of oil. Pic No 1 is a view of the Apollo governor. Pic No 2 is a look at the little oiler hole at the top of the unit. Last pic is a view inside governor showing the rear ball Bearing support and inside the 2 brass weights. The top oil hole leads to this rear bearing but I cant figure how the front bearing is lubed. I would like an accurate diagram of how yours hooks up to the carburetor or mixer.

As for the diff gear oil I believe the 600 is what is recommended but I have always used standard 90W Diff oil. Remember I only drive my Fordson's occasionally and never ask them to do any hard work and have never had any gear problems. Maybe Steve Welker or Butch Howe can chime in on the gear oil question. Ed B
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Old 04-10-2017, 03:02:41 PM
Steve Welker Steve Welker is offline
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Default Re: Fordson Wehr Governor Oil Level + Trans Oil Questions

Nik
On the Rear Gear oil, Like Ed said if just going to occasionally use for parades and such, regular gear oil would be fine. Worms gears have a lot of sliding friction compared to conventional spur gears. If not using a tractor to pull anything, a plain gear oil is OK as the Fordson worm gear is not seeing a great load moving around just the tractor. I would not use lighter than a ISO VG 460. EP (extreme pressure) gear oils are best for worms, but make sure that EP additive is not Sulfur based as that can cause problems with the bronze.

I do use a 600 series gear oil meant for bronze worm gears in mine as I do use my Fordsons for plowing and other work. The Mobil Steam Cylinder oil has special additives for use in the steam environment (water contamination) that is not necessarily needed in the rear end of a Fordson, but would work fine lubrication wise. I think the Super Steam Cylinder Oil is the heavier Viscosity.

What I would recommend is an EP oil with viscosity grade of a ISO VG 460 gear oil for light use and a ISO VG 680 for heavy use. Any lighter and the gears will be very noisy. Any heavier and the tractor will have a hard time moving itself under 50deg. Fahrenheit. Just make sure the oil is ok for Bronze Worm Gears and you will be fine. Mobil SHC 634 (ISO 460) and Mobil SHC 636 (ISO 680) are worm gear oils for heavy loaded bronze worm gear applications, but are quite expensive. For a tractor that is not being used everyday, you may be able to find a less expensive alternative by checking with a local oil distributor. Since these are not oils you will just pick up at Autozone, asking a rep. at a local oil distributor will be the best way to be able to find out what oil is OK with bronze worm gears, and be reasonable for price. A Fordson rear takes about 3 gallons.

-Steve
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Old 04-10-2017, 10:12:32 PM
Nik M Nik M is offline
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Default Re: Fordson Wehr Governor Oil Level + Trans Oil Questions

Ed, the Wehr advertisement says, "The case of the new Wehr governor is oil tight and all parts run in a bath of oil." So, I think that it must be intended to have a certain amount in the case. It wouldn't seem like the governor would function very well if it were brim full, though. I will take some detailed photos of my governor's hook up. I can't guarantee that it's correct, but it seems to work.

Steve, it looks like Mobil 600w is likely ISO VG 375 and Mobil 600w Super is ISO VG 460. I don't know if the original 600w was ISO VG 375, but if it was, Mobil 600w Super (ISO 460), Mobil SHC 634 (ISO 460), and Mobil SHC 636 (ISO 680) would all be heavier than intended. Obviously, you have about 10,000% more experience with Fordsons than I do, so I believe you that it works. It looks like Mobil 600w Super is way cheaper than the SHC 600 series, so maybe that's where I'll land. Really, it seems like any SAE 140 (ISO 460) that is yellow metal friendly should be okay. For that matter, SAE 85W-140 should work if it is yellow metal friendly. No? I guess what your saying is that EP oils are just better than regular SAE gear oil due to the worm gear sliding friction. The Mobil 600w and 600w Super don't actually say that they're EP, but they do list worm gears as an application.
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Old 04-10-2017, 10:41:33 PM
Ed Bezanson Ed Bezanson is offline
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Default Re: Fordson Wehr Governor Oil Level + Trans Oil Questions

It is interesting that the add says they run in a bath of oil. When I took the unit apart there is no indication of any seals in the front but it is sealed with a plug at the rear. It was totally dry inside but it has been sitting in the weeds for 70 years. I guess a small amount of oil would keep the bearings lubed and not impede the action of the counter weights. When I get a chance I will open up the other unit and see if I can learn any more about these governors. Ed B
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:51:55 AM
Steve Welker Steve Welker is offline
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Default Re: Fordson Wehr Governor Oil Level + Trans Oil Questions

Nik,
I never remembered a Fordson manual specifically calling out 600w, so I looked back thru the different year manuals to see what was recommended.

Starting with the first 1917 manual the Oil specified for the transmission and rear is simply listed as Heavy Fluid Gear Oil. Pretty basic, opens it up for interpretation. First photo below.

By 1925 the specification changed to use the same oil as used in the engine! No specific weight, just a Saybolt Viscosity of 650 at 100deg. F. That is roughly equivalent to 90 weight gear oil, 40 weight engine oil, or an ISO VG 150. Quite thin! Second photo below.

By 1935 in a Sherman and Sheppard (Importers on the English model N Fordsons) Lubrication Manual the rear oil Specification gets a little more specific. It calls out a Mobiloil EP S.A.E. 160 for temps above 32deg. F. SAE 160 is not a common rating anymore, but in terms of viscosity, this is more like the ISO VG 680. Third Photo below.

Fourth Photo is a Viscosity chart showing comparison between different rating systems (SAE, ISO, AGMA, etc.)

Since there is not real major changes in the design of the transmission and final drive (minor bearing & ratio changes in trans, and worm was made finer) from 1917 to 1935, why the change in oil requirements? My belief is early on there was no real good unified system of oil grades, or at least none that farmers understood, so it was just as easy to list it as Heavy Fluid Gear Oil. The change to specifying engine oil was probably to make it simple for the farmers, one basic oil for the entire tractor. The final change to specifying an EP SAE 160 gear oil was probably because of excessive wear using the engine oil.

In conclusion, the Fordson rear end is not that picky. Anything from 40w engine oil to 160w gear oil had been specified from the factory. As long as you use something that won't harm the Bronze, you should be fine. SAE 140w should be fine. 85W-140 would probably be ok also as that is still better than 40w engine oil. If you go by the newest specification, an EP Gear OIL with a rating of ISO VG 680 (SAE 160) is the best, but this was assuming the tractor was going to be working hard. Just use something that won't harm Bronze. One side note, the thicker the transmission oil, the better the transmission input gears stop, making it easier to shift because the clutch is disengaging fully.

I never done it, but it would be interesting how adding something like STP or Lucas additive to 140w would work? Maybe bring it up closer to SAE 160w? I have 3 tractors I'm finishing up now, I may have to try something like this in one of them.

-Steve
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Old 04-17-2017, 09:47:39 PM
Nik M Nik M is offline
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Default Re: Fordson Wehr Governor Oil Level + Trans Oil Questions

Ed, just a note that I haven't forgotten about the photos I promised. I'll get it done.
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Old 04-25-2017, 09:44:28 PM
Nik M Nik M is offline
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Default Re: Fordson Wehr Governor Oil Level + Trans Oil Questions

Ed, here are some photos of installation. Let me know if you need something different.
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Old 04-25-2017, 09:54:55 PM
Nik M Nik M is offline
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Default Re: Fordson Wehr Governor Oil Level + Trans Oil Questions

BTW, Ed and Steve, do either of you know why the timing adjustment rod support on my tractor has an extra support place? You can see it in two of the photos on the front head bolt. It's split, and one place supports the rod and the other is empty. Photos I've seen just have a shorter, full width timing adjustment rod support.
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Old 04-25-2017, 10:31:35 PM
Ed Bezanson Ed Bezanson is offline
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Default Re: Fordson Wehr Governor Oil Level + Trans Oil Questions

Nik I have several of these linkages with that bracket in my storage area and I do not know what the second outer loop is for. I put mag drives on all my tractors but one of my rebuilt engines will be using the coil box timer system so I also want to understand what this extra support loop is for.
In asking the following questions I am assuming this tractor is a running unit so you can observe the action of the governor. That said , I can see that this is a fairly simple hookup to the governor but don't quite understand how it attaches to the mixer. Specifically what is that 2 bolt gray cylinder in the middle of Pic No 2. I know it attaches to the front end of the throttle shaft but how does the governor twist, turn or control the throttle????????????????? Ed B
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