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Carburetors, Mixers, Fuel Pumps and fuel delivery Discussion about misc. carbs, mixers, fuel pumps, injectors.

Carburetors, Mixers, Fuel Pumps and fuel delivery

Mccormick Deering Type M Won't Start


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  #1  
Old 08-19-2018, 10:23:41 AM
C Adams C Adams is offline
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Default Mccormick Deering Type M Won't Start

Hello,

I am having an issue with my fathers McCormick Deering Type M 6 horsepower engine not wanting to start. Normally this is our best running engine.
We have tried the following: Cleaned the spark plug, check for spark, pulled the top of the carb off and found water on the kerosene side so we cleaned this out, Drained the gas, add fresh gas, the pick up is clear, the needle looks to be in great shape, tried starting with the needle one turn out and all we got was it to fire twice with nothing. Fuel pump is working and we start it by adding gas to the mixer so we have fuel in this area.
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Old 08-19-2018, 10:46:04 AM
AKMark AKMark is offline
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Default Re: Mccormick Deering Type M won't start

First thing I would try is a new plug
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Old 08-19-2018, 10:59:37 AM
C Adams C Adams is offline
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Default Re: Mccormick Deering Type M won't start

Even though it's a RITZ that is showing fire when the plug is out and grounded to the block??
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Old 08-19-2018, 12:24:42 PM
radiodoc radiodoc is offline
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Default Re: Mccormick Deering Type M won't start

Sometimes for whatever reason a plug will fire outside grounded to the engine but will not fire screwed into the engine under compression.
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Old 08-19-2018, 01:19:06 PM
C Adams C Adams is offline
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Default Re: Mccormick Deering Type M won't start

That would be our luck over looking the simple things
Anymore suggestions as we will have to pull the engine out of storage and be working on them for a show this weekend??

Thanks guys
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Old 08-19-2018, 05:55:49 PM
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4BadHotrodBrent 4BadHotrodBrent is offline
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Default Re: Mccormick Deering Type M won't start

If it is, Champion plugs are notorious for not jumping a spark under compression. Been told it had something to do with imperfections “cracks” in the porcelain? Either way I’ve had the same issues in the past and a new plug put things back to normal.
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Personally, I don't see anything that could go wrong.
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Old 08-19-2018, 10:52:26 PM
C Adams C Adams is offline
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Default Re: Mccormick Deering Type M won't start

The spark plug is an original Rit. What is the Champion number so I can cross reference a couple of items??

Thanks for your help guys.
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Old 08-20-2018, 01:43:11 AM
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Dick Graybill Dick Graybill is offline
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Default Re: Mccormick Deering Type M Won't Start

My 1-1/2 M takes 3076 Autolite. Advance Auto Parts had them for less than $3.00
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Old 08-20-2018, 12:51:14 PM
DieselAddicted DieselAddicted is offline
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Default Re: Mccormick Deering Type M Won't Start

Quote:
Originally Posted by C Adams View Post
Hello,

I am having an issue with my fathers McCormick Deering Type M 6 horsepower engine not wanting to start. Normally this is our best running engine.
We have tried the following: Cleaned the spark plug, check for spark, pulled the top of the carb off and found water on the kerosene side so we cleaned this out, Drained the gas, add fresh gas, the pick up is clear, the needle looks to be in great shape, tried starting with the needle one turn out and all we got was it to fire twice with nothing. Fuel pump is working and we start it by adding gas to the mixer so we have fuel in this area.
1 turn out is waaay too rich for any M I own (6) I would take the plug out and crank it over to clear the cylinder. clean the plug or replace it and try 1/2 turn. My 6HP ingnitor M starts and runs well 1/4 turn out
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Old 08-20-2018, 01:19:21 PM
C Adams C Adams is offline
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Default Re: Mccormick Deering Type M Won't Start

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Originally Posted by DieselAddicted View Post
1 turn out is waaay too rich for any M I own (6) I would take the plug out and crank it over to clear the cylinder. clean the plug or replace it and try 1/2 turn. My 6HP ingnitor M starts and runs well 1/4 turn out
Thanks.
Normally we don't mess with it but we had the top completely off and were told that it would start at one turn and then we could adjust from there. So once we put it back together that's where we tried from.
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Old 08-20-2018, 01:52:47 PM
Andrew Mackey Andrew Mackey is offline
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Default Re: Mccormick Deering Type M Won't Start

If you flood the engine, any gas that gets on the plug will short it out under compression. Nature of crap E-10 gas. Try heating the plug insulator with a propane torch, then let cool. I agree that 1 turn out is too much. Try 3/4 turn from lightly seated and go from there. Only choke for a turn or two, and then open it. The Ms are tough to clear out if flooded. Make sure you have enough spark. The WICO EK should give a good fat 1/4" blue spark/ A thin pale spark means the plug might not fire under compression. A pinkish spark may indicate a bad condenser. Be sure the points are not oiled, and that they are clean. A clean white card should be inserted in the points, then drawn slightly out. The points are then opened and the card checked. DO NOT draw all the way out or you will foul the points with paper. The card should come out absolutely clean. No oil or gray deposits at all. if you want to check mag timing, place a popsicle stick under both poles and let the mag close. The points should JUST open at that point. Plug gap .025"
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Old 08-23-2018, 11:14:08 PM
C Adams C Adams is offline
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Default Re: Mccormick Deering Type M Won't Start

So we went with a Champion W20 spark plug which cross references to the 3076 autolite plug, we had this plug on hand for our LA's

We were able to get it to fire but it only did for about 5 times the first time and then died. I noticed that we had lost compression. We were able to get it to fire one more time for about 10 times but then it died while trying to adjust the needle. So I am going to try switching spark plugs and see if we get compression back. If we don't we suspect carbon build up on the valves.

Any other thoughts before we remove the head and check the valves??
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Old 08-24-2018, 07:08:47 PM
Andrew Mackey Andrew Mackey is offline
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Default Re: Mccormick Deering Type M Won't Start

Loss of compression has nothing to do with spark. Look for weak valve springs, worn valves and guides, and poor ring fit in the lands ( too much side clearances). look at the valve faces and seats. They should not be rounded, but be a sharp flat contact. if guides ao stems are worn, the valves will not seat well every time. When your comprssion goes away, can you tell where it is leaking away from (intake, exhaust, block (out the breather)? Do you see any bubbles in the hopper, on the compression stroke?
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Old 08-29-2018, 09:18:16 AM
C Adams C Adams is offline
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Default Re: Mccormick Deering Type M Won't Start

Thank you sir
Being we changed the spark plug I was thinking if it seated work or not completely that could cause the compression loss. We are going to make sure that we have a gasket kit on hand and then do some more trouble shooting.
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Old 03-25-2019, 06:57:16 PM
Andrew Mackey Andrew Mackey is offline
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Exclamation Re: Mccormick Deering Type M Won't Start

NOTE: If you flooded the engine bad enough to get liquid gas in the cylinder, you may have washed all the oil off the piston and rings. This will cause a loss of compression. Take out the spark plug and ground it. Fill the oiler with SAE 30 oil (which you should be using), and set it to drip at about 20 drips/minute. After a few minutes, turn the engine over slowly to spread the oil around. After about 5 more minutes of this, re-set the oiler to around 8 drips/minute, and re-check compression. If still low, check where the air loss is. Intake or exhaust, might be carbon. Sometimes just spinning the valves when closed will clear the carbon out. If out the crankcase breather, the piston will need to be looked at. Typically, if the engine bounces back on the compression stroke, the engine should run.

Have a look at the WICO EK when it trips. Both poles should seperate from the armature at the same time. If one side breaks first, then the other, you will get a weak spark. A new guide bushing will need to be fitted, if that is the case. The break itself should be quick. The spring will load up until the magnetic pull is exceeded, and then the mag will snap open. When the engine was stopped for the storage time, was the mag left tripped (open)? If so, the magnets may have to be re-charged. This goes for al the folks with the EK, PR and OC type WICO mags - make sure the armature is closed when the engine stops! t will save you a lot of hassle later!
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