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Wisconsin Engines

New Holland L425 Wisconsin VH4D Rebuild


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  #1  
Old 07-05-2019, 11:17:23 PM
IndianaDundee IndianaDundee is offline
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Default New Holland L425 Wisconsin VH4D Rebuild

I recently bought a used skid steer for what I thought was a fair price given the few issues that I needed to fix.
I knew going in that the engine (Wisconsin VH4D) had been recently rebuild and the hydraulics were strong. However the bucket was rusting out, the exhaust was leaking, it needed a new seat, and the tires were bald. All the bad was stuff I could easily fix, and it started and ran well as I inspected it before buying.
After I got home with it and fixed the few known issues I put it to work. After about 5 hours of moving dirt it abruptly quit. It would not crank fast enough to start back. I put the battery charger on it and let it sit for the night. In the morning it started up but only ran for 10 seconds before stalling out again. Once again it would not crank. On further inspection I noticed the alternator belt was broke.
After fighting the boom all day to raise it enough with a floor jack and some 4x4's I could access the engine enough to pull both the starter and alternator to have them checked. I had the starter rebuilt as the bushings in it were shot. After putting it back together it still wouldn't start.
This time not only would it not crank fast enough to start but the starter was staying engaged. So after paying a "professional" $125 to rebuild it, I had to tear it down and put it back together again myself because it had been assembled wrong. After doing this it still would not crank.
The next thought I had was possibly a hydraulic pump froze up. I pulled all of the hydraulics out only to find that they were flowing properly and not the problem.
I know it has to be an engine problem. In order to access the Wisconsin VH4D it must be removed from the skid steer. After figuring out how to do this with a couple of ratchet straps, I could then start removing all of the air shrouding. Due to a horrible design the flywheel must be removed to take the air shroud off. I had to buy some new tools and build a new tool.
I finally convinced the flywheel off with brute force wedges and heat. I would like to take this opportunity to send a huge middle finger to Wisconsin engineers. Even in a state of partial disassembly it was still difficult to turn the engine by hand.

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  #2  
Old 07-05-2019, 11:52:31 PM
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Default Re: New Holland L425 Wisconsin VH4D rebuild

I sure hope the engine wasn't rebuilt in the same manner as the starter!
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Old 07-05-2019, 11:55:59 PM
IndianaDundee IndianaDundee is offline
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Default Re: New Holland L425 Wisconsin VH4D rebuild

My next thoughts were a stuck valve or a frozen bearing. After removing the cam gear and turning the cam by hand everything moved properly there so I moved on to the crank. Look very closely at the picture and see if you find anything wrong.

If you didn't spot it immediately, don't feel bad I didn't either. I thought something looked odd, so I consulted the manual from Wisconsin (available free on the internet) for the rotation of the engine. I now quote from the service manual on page 21, "Be sure that the oil hole in connecting rod cap is facing toward the oil spray nozzle." That's right all four of the connecting rod caps are on backwards. I can only hope that the oil starved crank and connecting rods have not been excessively damaged due to the incompetence of the rebuilder.
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Old 07-06-2019, 12:00:22 AM
K-Tron K-Tron is offline
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Default Re: New Holland L425 Wisconsin VH4D rebuild

It sounds like whoever rebuilt the engine did not check piston to cylinder clearance, ring gap or even the oil pump. Something is binding up bad to prevent that starter from turning the engine over. I literally will not buy an engine for good money that has been rebuilt. I have lost all faith in society. I picked up a rebuilt VH4D two years ago for $100. Owner said it had just three hours of run time on it when it failed. Every one of the four oil nozzles for the rods were missing. It was amazing that the engine ran as long as it did. This may be the case on your engine, and if it is, you will need a new crank, rods and a whole lot of money to dump into it. I hear your pain in regards to removing the flywheel. It does not look like you have much room to work with the way that engine sits in your skid steer. The flywheels usually come off without too much trouble if you can access either end of the crankshaft. Put some anti-seize on the taper of the crankshaft when re-fitting the flywheel. It will come off easier next time around. I hope you do not find the worst. That is a nice looking skid steer. I have wanted one with a Wisconsin V4, just cannot own one where I live in suburbia. Let us know what you find.

EDIT: It looks like you beat me to it. That picture says it all, four reversed connecting rods and some questionable looking oil squirters. There is no telling what else has been screwed up with the rebuild. I hope the crank has not been destroyed, but it sounds like it may be too late. Those look like the later rods with removable inserts. Hopefully they took the brunt of the wear and left a polished crankpin. I have seen some of these run without oil long enough that the crankpin was blue with iron transfer from the material behind the babbitt welding to the crankpin.

Chris
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Old 07-06-2019, 12:06:23 AM
IndianaDundee IndianaDundee is offline
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Default Re: New Holland L425 Wisconsin VH4D rebuild

After flipping the bearing caps, reassembling the engine and putting it back in the skid steer, it started after playing with the timing a bit. While I had ever thing apart I added a tachometer so I know if I am pushing the 2800 rpm red line of this engine. Then while adjusting the carb and setting the idle, the engine abruptly stopped. I immediately thought it had to be the sleeve bearings had more damage than I had thought. Also possible to have excessive crank and rod wear so I pulled it out and tore it down again.
When I pulled the crankshaft the PTO end bearing spit the rollers out. So I have found the route problem.
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  #6  
Old 07-06-2019, 12:14:16 AM
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Default Re: New Holland L425 Wisconsin VH4D rebuild

That is really bad. The heat from running the engine under full friction load really took its toll on those Timkens. At this rate, you better pull the whole engine apart; the rings are bound to be installed upside down, exhaust valves in the intake holes, or perhaps worse, the cam installed backwards! Good luck with the rebuild.

Chris
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Old 07-06-2019, 12:24:54 AM
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Default Re: New Holland L425 Wisconsin VH4D rebuild

This Wisconsin VH4D engine uses a specific bearing (part #ME114) that depending on the dealer sells for $200-300. I am used to buying bearings for $10-20. Has anyone else replaced one of these before and found a better price on a comparable bearing? I did discover a Massey Ferguson bearing for $50 with the same part number (ME 114) and they list the dimensions, but I can't find a dimension on the Wisconsin that I have to know if it will fit.

After fighting with what was left of the bearing for hours using a puller, slide hammer, WD40, PB Blaster, ATF, and heat all I managed to to was bend my puller.
Then I got lucky. I found another crank on EBay complete with bearings, connecting rods, bearing seats, oil pump, timing cover, and gears for $200.
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Old 07-06-2019, 12:33:52 AM
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Default Re: New Holland L425 Wisconsin VH4D rebuild

Weld a bead around the inner bearing race and it will slide right off. If not, take a cold chisel to it and split it in half. The bearing races are hardened, and brittle. I see the Timken 3382 and Timken 3328 bearings for about $30 each on ebay.

Chris
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Old 07-06-2019, 12:57:06 AM
IndianaDundee IndianaDundee is offline
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Default Re: New Holland L425 Wisconsin VH4D rebuild

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Tron View Post
Timken 3382 and Timken 3328 bearings for about $30 each on ebay.

Chris
Is one of those Timkens the same as the ME114 listed as the replacement part? It is too late for my rebuild, but it may help someone else.

---------- Post added at 12:57:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:42:39 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Tron View Post
That is really bad. The heat from running the engine under full friction load really took its toll on those Timkens. At this rate, you better pull the whole engine apart; the rings are bound to be installed upside down, exhaust valves in the intake holes, or perhaps worse, the cam installed backwards! Good luck with the rebuild.

Chris
I thought the same thing so into it I went. I found some of those and more issues as I dug in. However I missed something, and had to go back in and partially rebuild the top end again.

This is not my first engine rebuild, but it is my first flathead. Most my experience is with small block Chevy. I have been into a couple of Dodge and Nissan engines as well as a Toyota. Completely rebuilt a Briggs or two also but they all were overhead valve engines.
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Old 07-06-2019, 01:13:16 AM
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Default Re: New Holland L425 Wisconsin VH4D rebuild

I had noticed a bit of smoke coming from the oil fill tube and it had gas in the oil when I drained it. I figured it had some blowby but didn't expect to find the issues that I did. First thing I noticed was that the front and rear cylinders were wet but the middle two looked normal.

Looks like someone tried to pry the head off or chisel a valve loose and beat the block up. Tons of carbon under the intake valves also. I have never seen pitting this bad either.

Got the block decked below the gouge marks and took most of the pitting out. I probably could have used new valve seats but I don't have the tools to to it so I ground and polished them before lapping.
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  #11  
Old 07-06-2019, 01:22:57 AM
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Default Re: New Holland L425 Wisconsin VH4D rebuild

In my experience, rod caps have always had to be assembled to the rod in a specific direction and they are marked with an identifying mark so that they will be assembled correctly. Just turning the cap could cause binding on the crank if you don’t turn the rods around also.
Based on your stated observation of various other assembly mistakes, I would pull EVERYTHING apart and start from scratch.
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Old 07-06-2019, 01:27:47 AM
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Default Re: New Holland L425 Wisconsin VH4D rebuild

I am trying to build this thing on the cheap so I'm not going to bore the block and buy oversize pistons. Using the old 10 over rings and file to fit trick, I was just going to pop the pistons back in the holes they came from after a good cleaning. But I discovered that rings for this engine are not cheap. I can buy a whole set of 350 Chevy rings for about half of what one cylinder costs for this engine. The rods are directional so those were on backwards and I am replacing those. I also found some rings that were upside down.
I really have a basket case on my hands here.
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Old 07-06-2019, 01:40:09 AM
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Default Re: New Holland L425 Wisconsin VH4D rebuild

found the timing advance weights in the distributor were rusted up and not working. No wonder it was missing under load. Really makes me wonder how the guy I bought it from claimed to have went through the engine a few months ago. I should have looked it over better, but it was getting dark when I was looking. I also had drove an hour to get there with a borrowed trailer that I had to return that night.


Hey I found an easy part of this rebuild that any fool can do. Use clean parts!
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Old 07-06-2019, 02:17:19 AM
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Default Re: New Holland L425 Wisconsin VH4D rebuild

I got her all cleaned up put back together reinstalled. I ran it long enough to get up to temperature (who knows what that is though? It's not like it has a temperature gauge) and set the timing and adjusted the carb. Then I did some light digging to see if it had the power it should. That is when it blew a seal between the hydraulic pumps. So back into the hydraulic system to put in a new seal. Then while trying to get it started the starter solenoid quit working. Again the replacement part is outrageously expensive, but I am smart enough to know it is just a heavy duty relay. I could get one for a lawnmower for $7, but I splurged and got one for an old Ford V8 for $12.

Once again the battery was dead so I charged it while waiting on my relay to arrive. Who's moronic idea was it to use such a small battery on this thing anyway? My lawnmower has more CCA than this thing does. Once I get it going I will build a normal size battery box and get a normal size battery with times the CCA of this odd shaped hunk of junk that came on it.

I put the relay on within 10 minutes of Brown Santa dropping it on my carport. Excited to finally get my yard fixed, I jump on and head to the big dirt pile. After about 5 buckets of dirt the engine gets real loud and is stumbling to pull its own weight. After closer inspection I noticed blue flames rolling around inside the air duct. That can only be two things either head gasket or a cracked block. Lucky for me I have both! I've never seen a head gasket fail like this before but this is also the first flathead I have ever worked on. I don't know if the block cracked and therefore the head gasket blew or the head gasket blew and the heat from the fire going down hole between cylinders cracked the block.

I know why the gasket blew. 0.15 on the block and 0.18 on the head. That's 0.33 mm gap when 0.05 mm is the max tolerance.
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Old 07-06-2019, 07:24:05 AM
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Default Re: New Holland L425 Wisconsin VH4D rebuild

Your pic of the engine flywheel and the shroud may tell the story.

Don't run it under load without the screen that goes over the flywheel. Hopefully it was removed during your work and is just not in the picture.

This ring covers the blade tips by approximately 1.5 inches. Without this the fan (flywheel) loses almost 50% efficiency. The result is that it doesn't pass enough air and you cooked it.

Oh, and getting the flywheel off is easy. Put the nut on it to protect the threads. One nice straight whack with a sledgehammer it jumps off.
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Old 07-06-2019, 08:50:14 AM
IndianaDundee IndianaDundee is offline
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Default Re: New Holland L425 Wisconsin VH4D rebuild

It has a flywheel screen, you can see it in the 2nd pic on the thread. I just didn't put it on until I had installed the engine. I didn't installed the starter, distributor, alternator, or manifold to make it a little easier to squeeze thru the tight space it goes in.

Now the flywheel removal trick mentioned above may work on a clean flywheel and crank, but not on one this rusted on. Again it is a bad design. A two piece fan shroud would allow you to get at more of the engine without pulling the flywheel and get at the backside of the flywheel to free it up better. They also could have added bolt holes in the flywheel for using a puller.
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Old 07-06-2019, 10:04:11 AM
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Default Re: New Holland L425 Wisconsin VH4D Rebuild

Well for one thing, those little air cooled engines were designed for use on small combines and hay balers, both dirty jobs. The maintence books called for daily cleaning of the air passages, and they had small access doors for that on the side of the covers on the cylinders. The idea of putting them In the small space of a skid loader was not well thought out. It basically doomed them to use and throw away status. The guys that used them heavily would keep a spare on the shelf for these times and change them out as needed. Back in the day on the farm we had 2 balers with them as power, we kept a spare. This is why you don't see them in skid loaders today, buyers were not going to put up with this on the costly new machine. Unfortunately for you, some one had been in your engine and didn't know what they were doing, we've all been in that unfortunate situation. Just have to suck it up and work through it. New are still available but not cheap.
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:41:40 AM
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Default Re: New Holland L425 Wisconsin VH4D Rebuild

I ran across this W4-1770 in Richmond, VA.

He had it rebuilt and the rebuilder used the wrong rings. He repowered his stump grinder with a Vanguard and was selling this engine for parts. Fresh rebuilt engines like these sell for $3-5k with running used ones going for $1500-2500. So I set out on a 350 mile trip one way to save $1500. 5:45 to get there 30 minutes to look it over and load and 6:15 back and $100 in gas for a 12.5 hour day. Other than starter, distributor, charging system, manifold and heads, everything is the same as my VH4D. You can read about the differences between the two in my thread about W4-1770 vs VH4D.
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:59:45 AM
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Default Re: New Holland L425 Wisconsin VH4D Rebuild

Tearing down this W4-1770, I noticed how much cleaner it is compared to the VH4D that was on my skid steer. Check out the carbon deposits on the intake ports. Also the amount of pitting on the VH4D (bottom) compared to the W4 (top).

I used a 25˘ tool to pull the valves, lap them and reinstall.
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Old 07-08-2019, 06:05:40 PM
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Default Re: New Holland L425 Wisconsin VH4D Rebuild

Now for the tricky stuff. I did the jug swap using a technique that saves me from pulling the engine, oil pan and draining the oil. I will do an oil change after a break in period, but I don't have any more money to waste on this thing now. First, in order to pull the jug the air ductwork must be removed. But as I mentioned before the fan housing is a pain to get off due to flywheel removal and the engine has to be pulled to do that. Instead I took off the manifold and ducts around the cracked jug. The I removed the six nuts that hold the jug on. 5 are easy but the 6th one can't be reached with a regular wrench or rachet. Here you can see the wrench doesn't fit flat enough to remove the nut.

I can get a socket on the nut, but there is not enough room for a ratchet on top of the socket. So I took a 1/2 inch round rod and ground it to 3/8 square.

Then I put the 11/16 3/8 drive socket with the rod inserted in it on the nut. To can see the tiny clearance left.

Then I can use a smaller 3/8 wrench and a light tap with a hammer to loosen the nut.
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