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Re: How it's Done 3-5


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Old 08-01-2015, 11:23:10 AM
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Smile Re: How it's Done 3-5

How it’s Done 1-1

I had a nice talk with Harry the other evening explaining what I’d like to post in the STAK. I’ve been a lifelong machinist from a Tech high school onward.

For nearly 10 years my father & I raced & repaired Karts. From a very early age I developed a lifelong love for small engines.
I’m very concerned that the skills of small engine cylinder repair be passed along to the next generation. We are starting the thread “How it’s Done” in the STAK.

I was able to save a few hundred dollars while serving my hitch in the Navy. In 1971 when I returned home I went right back to working in the Kart & machine shop. I started attempting a cylinder bore as I’m sure many of you have with a 3 legged Egg Beater cylinder hone which quickly ended up in a disaster.

While thumbing thru the classified ads in the Oregonian news paper, I discovered Hawkins Machinery. It was summer time & Tom Hawkins discovered that I could be talked into purchasing machine tools wile consuming quantities of Almaden Rhine whine in front of the fireplace in his back yard.
My first purchase was a model FW Kwik Way boring bar, 2.2” to around 5” holes. After visiting a few Cycle shops I quickly discovered that Cylinder boring and TIG welding was badly needed. It all started from there. www.smallenginemachineworks.com

From an early start Small Engine became NW distributor of Wiesco piston & Los Angeles sleeve co.
We started installing sleeves in cylinders from the very beginning. I spent many hours on the phone with Gary Metchkoff (L A Sleeve). Gary was laying out his first motor cycle sleeve catalog; we kind of learned cycle sleeves together. It didn’t take very long before I decided to start making my own cylinder sleeves. I had some pattern making training in pattern shop in high school. In the early days, I’d have a local pattern shop make my custom match plate patterns.

In the middle eighties my father became ill & I had to step in & take over the family hardware business. Small Engine Machine Works was sold & was renamed N. W. Sleeve.
What goes around comes around; I’m now retired & NW Sleeve has closed. The domain name of www.smallenginemachineworks.com was available so I snapped it up again.

This time my main goal is to pass along the trade to anybody else who is interested in getting their hands dirty. I’ve been thinking about what to write about this time. Our work is rather repetitive, sleeve liner over & over. I never seem to get tired of the work.
With each job the customer will have a special request which makes things more interesting.




I received a couple sets of RD350 Yamaha cylinders to re-line. Our casting blanks are a little close on the ID, so I decided to make up a new pattern with a slightly smaller Inside core. It’s always handy to have a better assortment of sleeve castings around, we never know what will come in next.

My thread is a little repetitive but something different will show up each time. The new custom sleeve patterns start out with a stack of glued together 2x4’s. Some of you folks probably wonder how we grab a rectangular piece of wood in the metal lathe.
I went to a local Wood Crafters store & purchased this 4 jaw wood chuck & clamped it in the 3 jaw metal lathe chuck, it works pretty slick.



While going thru the STAK; learning some about you folks who collect & restore old engines. I thought my “How it’s Done” thread would be very informative to you collectors. I’ve been writing this thread in another web site but have run out of material after a few years. While looking at the STAK more I see that there are quite a few advertisers in similar machine shop operations. I hope that we can get some good conversations going which the rest of the readership can learn from.

This time around I found a foundry; Silverton Iron Foundry who was willing to cast sleeve castings for me with loose split patterns.




The first time around I didn’t clamp things correctly & my contraption flew out of the lathe & nearly smacked me in the face.



Stay tuned for section 1-2
JT

Last edited by John Tice; 08-15-2015 at 02:07:48 AM.
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Old 08-01-2015, 11:36:37 AM
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Smile Re: How it's Done 1-2

How it’s Done 1-2
Machining wood is a very spongy operation. A generous amount of sand paper is needed to finish smoothing things out. My carbide inserts needed to be fresh & sharp.




After the lathe work is complete, some draft taper is added using a belt sander.




Draft in a pattern is the taper used to aid pulling the pattern out of the mould.

Lastly, Vince is sealing the pattern with a couple of coats of clear lacquer.



The last few years we have accumulated around 6 or 7 patterns which serve the needs of most cycles & small engines that we work with. I’ve lately been informed that the owners of the Silverton Iron Foundry are going to soon retire & close the operation. If any of you STAK members who live in our neck of the woods; The foundry can be purchased for a reasonable price. I’m on the hunt for another foundry to do my castings, probably spun cast this time around. If the foundry were to continue operations, I will be happy to continue as a customer.



Our Green Sand castings are sound & solid. Most have around a ½” cross section so can be machined with flanges if need be. All of these picture files are unlocked for any of you who would like to take a closer look. “How it’s Done” is an educational thread about small engine cylinder & the equipment used to work on them. If any of you would like to ask questions or make a comment, please chime in.

I’m always open for phone call questions, after dinner please. 503-593-2908, until 9pm Pacific.

JT the “Old Dog”

Last edited by John Tice; 08-01-2015 at 07:11:15 PM.
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Old 08-01-2015, 11:51:17 AM
Roland Hayes Roland Hayes is offline
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Default Re: How it's Done 1-2

John, thank you for these interesting and informative posts
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Old 08-02-2015, 11:25:37 AM
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Smile Re: How it's Done 1-1

In a couple of weeks the next addition of “How it’s Done” will be about proper cylinder honing. This is a MUST READ for you engine rebuilders. There has always been much confusion between honing& glaze breaking.
JT
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Old 08-02-2015, 12:56:59 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 1-1

Thanks for contributing John. Having been in the bike biz for 13 years I did a fair amount of re sleeving old jugs. Man I sort of dreaded sleeving two strokes as there is so much work needed to get all the ports matched to the cylinder. IIRC I did get sleeves from LA Sleeve.

I too used a KwikWay FWS 2 for the boring. I always wanted to modify the base on it so I could air float it while trying to center it accurately in the bores. The drag on the base even when cleaned and oiled often wouldn't get the head centered well. Setup on the two strokers was often a bit time consuming for standard rebores as I often offset the cutter to remove more on the exhaust side as that's where most of the wear is.

Looking forward to your posts.
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Old 08-02-2015, 06:18:06 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 1-1

Stay tuned for how I show everyone how the port work is done.
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Old 08-02-2015, 08:22:58 PM
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Smile Re: How it's Done 1-1

3 centering fingers give us an opportunity to give it another try or two. I do & teach my students when I have them to chuck the cylinders upside down plus centering from the opposite end.



This may be a mouthful to you readers who have never operated a boring bar before. Hopefully with further reading some of you will develop an interest in these marvelous machines. I teach & do myself to center once, rotate the bar center twice & center a third time before clamping the bar to the table. This procedure would tend to give the average centering position. I agree with oldstuff that centering is a tricky situation; especially if we have only a .25mm or +.010” over size piston which may never clean up the cylinder bore.
Next time we will talk about honing to a first or +.010” oversize. I plan to make another “How it’s Done” entry every 2 weeks. Thanks to oldstuff for the informative comment.
JT

Last edited by John Tice; 08-02-2015 at 11:51:59 PM.
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Old 08-02-2015, 08:32:35 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 1-1

On a tangent here for you non bikey guys so bear with it for a few posts.

You and I John, have seen cylinders that are out of spec from the factory. As two strokers will break pistons from excessive clearance the factories simply bored them bigger to in their minds eliminate seizing. A .25mm bore (.009 ") will maybe clean it up but often a bore to .50 is needed.

I'll input more useless few really care historical data as the thread progresses. Including my clearances on road race and MX bikes that American Honda told me I was wrong on.

Hint... Mine worked theirs didn't.

Last edited by I like oldstuff; 08-02-2015 at 08:45:33 PM.
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Old 08-02-2015, 08:51:00 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 1-1

Oldstuff has some good humor as well as good information.
The new cycle & other types of engines are plated instead of using iron sleeves. Now days Wiesco & others are giving large selections of oversizes. I’m on the phone with Wiesco piston nearly every day. There are piston possibilities for nearly every engine, even for the antiques.
JT
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Old 08-03-2015, 05:23:17 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 1-1

I'm mostly an automotive engine guy, but I'll be watching this carefully. Much of the tooling/jigs and machining practices translate over pretty well.

Thanks for passing on the knowledge to both of you!
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Old 08-08-2015, 01:34:19 PM
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Question Re: How it's Done 2-1

Cylinder boring; Blind bores & oddball setups. 2-1

Some of you readers have discovered that I’ve got a lot to learn, especially you who have been reading about compression ratios. So your comments & educational wisdom are more than welcome in my “How it’s Done” thread. This is meant to be educational & encouraging to those who may be interested in taking up the cylinder repair business.
This kind of work is an everyday routine around here; Goggle has been good to me. Besides, small bore cylinders are not usually done in automotive machine shops.


Besides being a blind bore; this cylinder is bare aluminum. Bare bore aluminum cylinders in many engines is common in lesser grades of mowers & industrial power plants. There is also an assortment of outboard motors in the mix; fact is aluminum bare cylinders are cheaper to manufacture.

Extra care must be taken when dealing with bare aluminum bores. The cylinder needs to be honed extra smooth. The skirt clearance is also more critical since it is usually much closer. In the past, outboard motors & small 4-strokers have had such large skirt clearances that the finished bore dimensions were not as critical. Recently we received an outboard Tuhotsu block which is fit as tight as a Japanese cycle engine.
We are starting to require a piston along with the block to double check the skirt clearance.

When we blind bore a cylinder, the finished bore size must be achieved as close as possible. Depending on the type of cylinder block the finish hone can be very tricky & difficult to obtain. Special honing mandrels are necessary to hit the dimensions all the way to the bottom.
Some of the larger bore outboards are fairly easy to hit final dimensions with a Sunnen or Lisle mandrel. We NEVER use an EGG BEATER, Break cylinder hone for finish bore sizing.


This is an example of a mandrel which is set up to do a blind bore on our Sunnen connecting rod hone.


Examples of typical hones commonly used. Of the 3, the only one capable of precise sizing is #2. #2 is an Ammco brand or clone.


Cylinder honing & glaze breaking the difference; Glaze breaking is just what it says, removing the glaze & returning the typical cross hatch pattern for oil retention. Glaze breaking is not Cylinder honing; too many people consider the operations as the same.


The Brush hone; the Plateau hone
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Old 08-08-2015, 01:42:04 PM
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Question Re: How it's Done 2-2

Ball hones & brush hones, Dingle Berries as I call them; these tools are useful in 2-strokers for port champhering. Plateau honing is a new term to us Old Timers. Plateau honing is the technique of a final cylinder finishing & removing any remaining metal chips in the bore left by typical cylinder boring.

The Cross Hatch; the real reason for the Cross Hatch, either ID or OD. The pattern of cross hatching is useful in maintaining an accurate bore diameter from end to end.


Sunnen hand held hone


Lisle hand held hone


This block is an example odd ball set ups


This block is an example of a blind bore
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Old 08-08-2015, 01:58:17 PM
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Question Re: How it's Done 2-3


While not a typical blind bore, this cylinder has a step at the bottom which causes the same problems. This cylinder is also very clumsy & too heavy to be sized with a typical horizontal con rod hone.

The answer with my BAD BACK is hanging it from the ceiling. I quit hunting some years ago & use the old dear hanging block & tackle to create a trapeze for mounting heavy cylinders. It’s so easy to flip the cylinders back & forth for measuring purposes.

Another example of hanging a heavy cylinder while honing




We use torque plates for chucking unusual cylinders & cylinders which shouldn’t be press chucked from the bottom.

That’s all folks; stay tuned your comments & inputs are more than welcomed.
JT “Old Dog” www.smallenginemachineworks.com

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Old 08-09-2015, 10:36:23 AM
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Photo Re: How it's Done 2-1

Howdy Friends; “How it’s Done” 2-1 is posted, take a look
JT
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Old 08-14-2015, 03:42:56 PM
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Photo Re: How it's Done 3-1

How it’s Done 3-1
A lot of you folks read the thread but I’m surprised that there aren’t any questions? I’m overwhelmed of the diversity in the stak website. I had no idea of the interest in the really OLD equipment that you folks collect.

At Small Engines we do nothing but cylinders & special sleeve installations; mostly racing 2-strokers but a lot of vintage equipment. As “How it’s Done” progresses I’m sure that some conversations will follow along.

The Secret if there is one; cylinders need to be Round & Straight, proper finish honing is the key. A good set of measuring tools needs to be in the rollaway. Good Dial bore gauges are now easy to come by the internet. I usually have 2 or 3 of them available for different projects; the last price was a whole $62.00, what a deal.










Good micrometer prices go all over the place; How deep are your pockets?

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Old 08-14-2015, 03:54:35 PM
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Photo Re: How it's Done 3-2

I was excited to find this machine a few months ago from the www.alibaba.com web site. Alibaba is the oriental version of Google for machinery or anything else for that side of the pond, give it a try. As they say; Try it you’ll Like it.



After the machine was uncrated, we pulled off the wrapping

At first glance everything looked wonderful

After searching for some time I found what seemed like just what I needed. All of the US made vertical hones are designed for full sized automotive types of equipment. The model 9808 has a table mount more like a drill press, perfect for single cylinder small engines. After watching Utube for a week or so, I started to contact the manufactures of this machine. As it ends up it would seem as though the Chinese machines are manufactured all over the country & sold by factory representatives. The first rep that I found seemed just fine & the price seemed workable. After everything was worked out, I ordered the hone which was supposed to arrive in around 50 days. Never assume anything while ordering from people who you don’t have a working relationship with. It was assumed that this machine would be a turnkey piece of equipment (WRONG) ope:

1. Consider & use Pay Pal for your off shore purchases; it’s worth the extra cost since the currency exchange is adjusted & taken care of. Anything besides Pay Pal is a real pain.
2. I assumed hone heads to 100mm would be included.
3. No kind of mounting fixture was supplied
4. The T-slots don’t fit any of the mounting kits which we use

After a couple of our T-nuts were milled to fit the slots, we were ready to set things up and go to work.
I started to cut up 2x4’s for mounting since we didn’t know what the set up would look like. We first blocked up an old 305cc Honda cylinder for a test run.


The set up looks rather Cheezy but it worked for a start.


After searching around more I found another vender who was willing to help with the items that first vender let me down on; they also took Pay Pal “YEA” so the payment problems are eliminated. It was agreed upon that a mounting jig would be built & supplied. (More Money). As the bachelor that I am, I’d lay awake nights thinking about what kinds of fixture that we could make to grab & hold the cylinders to hone. It started by mounting a couple of 1” threaded rods to the table. We then went to the front office & helped our CAD man design the rest of the mounting jig. The jig is very simple; after drawing up the shapes which seemed correct, I headed off to another friend’s place that has a CNC torch burning machine. The finished parts look rather clean in an oval shape. The jig is so simple, we merely clamp the cylinders between the 2 jig halves & tighten it up.


This is a good shot of what the Old Dog really looks like.

Last edited by John Tice; 09-11-2015 at 02:40:18 PM.
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Old 08-14-2015, 04:03:50 PM
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Photo Re: How it's Done 3-3


It’s unbelievable how simple the new mounting fixture is. After adjusting the height for the stroke of the machine, the cylinder is centered in the jig & clamped down.
The new hone is extremely accurate with rapid stock removal. It’ll save mountains of time while maintaining very close accuracy.


Dominic our intern is measuring a See-Doo cylinder

All of the missing parts have finally arrived, we also fit a Sunnen hone head to the machine by drilling 1, 8mm hole. The people in China kept telling me that a Sunnen head wouldn’t work or fit on the machine. A little Yankee ingenuity is all it takes to do most anything around the shop.


Sunnen Head

This is a picture of the hone heads which finally came with the machine

The sizes run from 25mm all the way to over 100mm so we can hone any of the large thumper cylinders
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Old 08-14-2015, 04:14:55 PM
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Photo Re: How it's Done 3-4

Our large mounting fixture; A Harley cylinder with a torque plate clamps rite in.

Lastly; this is the mounting fixture which came with the machine

This is a Blaster cylinder using the multi stoned Sunnen head & the factory mounting fixture.



The last little bit is finished off on the Rod hone with a long stone 3 point mandrel which guarantees that the cylinder is round & straight. We don’t do much here at Small Engines but what we do, we do our best to be the best. None of us can do everything; All of us can be good at something (Stay Focused)

I’ve accumulated most of the equipment needed to do our work; I think it’s time to purchase a Go
Kart & spend some quality time at the track. Grandson will be 6 years old this month & it’s time to do some more bonding

Stay Tuned “Old Dog”

www.smallenginemachineworks.com

Call me most any time till 9:00 PM Pacific 503-593-2908


Last edited by John Tice; 08-14-2015 at 08:25:04 PM.
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Old 08-14-2015, 05:36:56 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 2-1

I instantly recognized the blaster cyl. I just finished putting a .060" over Namura piston in one. I hope that chin piston won't break so I set clearance at .03mm.

The engine went into a YSR50. Hee he,, it easily goes 80 now.
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Old 08-14-2015, 06:10:08 PM
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Default Re: How it's Done 2-1

Very informative. I've always sent my machine work out to get done but never actually saw how any of it was accomplished.
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