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Hobart G-213 W/ Wisconsin TJD starting issues


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  #21  
Old 03-02-2017, 09:42:12 PM
Seafarer12 Seafarer12 is offline
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Default Re: Hobart G-213 W/ Wisconsin TJD starting issues

Well I got my replacement fuel pump in and it works. It isn't as stout as the old one but it works. I got it fired up and then I discovered my next hurdle. I am going to have to remagnetize the generator. It was weak before I took it apart but I guess I did something to make it loose it. I am getting 3vac out of my 120v outlets and -1.5vdc out of the lugs. I thought by starting it with the electric started that might magnetize it enough to get it going but nope. I did at least prove that the electric start works. I started it a few times and the only thing I did was get the polarity going the right way on the lugs.

Anyone got a good way to flash this thing with the least chance of smoking anything? I would use an electric drill but my corded one burned up a few years back so I just use a cordless and you can't spin a grinder fast enough to make anything.
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Old 03-02-2017, 11:01:42 PM
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Default Re: Hobart G-213 W/ Wisconsin TJD starting issues

Teledyne bought Wisconsin as well as Continental Engines. Miller bought Hobart, although it is an open question whether they bought them directly or if there was an interim owner. In any event when I spoke to the Hobart people a year or two ago they told me that they were actually Miller people not Hobart. They also told me that any parts for those machines were long gone as Hobart apparently rounded up all their old stock and built out as many machines as they could with what was left then sold 'em.

Hobart built one variation or another of that welder for many years, I am guessing since the 50's. I have seen some with THD engines and maybe even one with a TF.
I'm surprised you somehow lost your magnetism. Like you I would have expected that staring with the electric starter would have restored it, but I am no expert on those matters. Keep us posted as work progresses!
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  #23  
Old 03-02-2017, 11:25:07 PM
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Default Re: Hobart G-213 W/ Wisconsin TJD starting issues

That machine should restore the magnetism by running the field exciter for starting. If not something is wrong with a bad connection on the commutator brushes/interconnections. When it is running drag a rod on a clean piece of steel letting it spark as this is aiding in the effect. Once the spark build sufficiently, turn the heat up and weld for a bit.

We'll go further if this doesn't work but if you've not damaged the large resistors being the panel on the upper left side, or any of the interconnections to the wiring, you should be making power. Usually with that series of welder having very low output AC voltage is indication of the AC winding burnt open on the rotor.
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Old 03-03-2017, 03:01:44 PM
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Default Re: Hobart G-213 W/ Wisconsin TJD starting issues

It hardly makes any sparks. I am only making 1.5volts open circuit. Dragging a rod across only makes very small sparks. There is no difference in voltage from the brushes to the lugs. It was working fine before I tore it down and only broke one connection to tape up a lead then cleaned it when I put it back together.

I ohmed out the slip rings and an not open or grounded. It is making some ac just not much.

The only thing I did was run it for a few minutes with the brushes out when I had the covers off the generator end. I wouldn't think that hurt anything. I didn't want anything to short out. It replaced or reinsulated a few wires that got chewed on by a rat and that was it. I checked all my splices and there are no opens or excessive resistance.
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  #25  
Old 03-03-2017, 03:13:06 PM
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Default Re: Hobart G-213 W/ Wisconsin TJD starting issues

what do you measure from slip ring to slip ring with the brushes lifted? Shouldn't be any more than about 1.6-1.8 ohms. This is your AC winding within the rotor measurement. Any higher and there is a problem to isolate there. However without making DC voltage at the welding terminals, or AC output voltage, I suspect excitation is the culprit but I'll not have you flash it and possibly burn your machine down without a bit of t/s first.
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  #26  
Old 03-03-2017, 04:23:35 PM
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Default Re: Hobart G-213 W/ Wisconsin TJD starting issues

It was about half an ohm. Which sounded about right. I know rotors have next to no resistance but they have some.

I tried shorting the leads together and that didn't make much difference as far as making anything better. I read that the amp flow can sometimes get it going again. I knew I wasn't making much so on the chance of blowing the fuse in my meter I measured the amps on the lugs and in high range I am making 3 amps. I did use the coarse and fine adjustment and did see an amperage change in the right direction so all the adjustments work like they should.
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  #27  
Old 03-03-2017, 04:32:01 PM
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Default Re: Hobart G-213 W/ Wisconsin TJD starting issues

I just read back through your earlier postings and I see you are not using the electric starting; is this still true? If so I'd get a couple of 12VDC batteries and use it at least once as this will reflash the system without hurting anything. If the magnetism is lost and you are hand cranking only the symptoms would be on par with your experiences.
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  #28  
Old 03-03-2017, 04:37:10 PM
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Default Re: Hobart G-213 W/ Wisconsin TJD starting issues

I tried that last night and all it did was get the polarity right on the lugs. It had been showing a -1.5 after it was 1.5v. I tried starting it a few times to see if it would do anything but no use.
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  #29  
Old 03-03-2017, 04:41:28 PM
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Default Re: Hobart G-213 W/ Wisconsin TJD starting issues

Did the engine attempt to turn over at all? Are you certain you were putting 24VDC to the battery terminals?
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  #30  
Old 03-03-2017, 05:18:46 PM
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Default Re: Hobart G-213 W/ Wisconsin TJD starting issues

It started fine. It was pretty slow but one of my batteries was bad so I had a charger on it.

---------- Post added at 03:18:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:17:09 PM ----------

It was in my post from 7:42 last night.
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Old 03-03-2017, 06:06:37 PM
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Default Re: Hobart G-213 W/ Wisconsin TJD starting issues

I must have read right over that but not uncommon.

What did you use to clean the commutator? Hope it wasn't flint paper or emery cloth as both are electrically conductive and won't help matters. If just cleaning commutator or slip rings I like to use either a stone for the purpose, or a non woven pad while the engine is running.

If you didn't get a manual send me your email address via pm as I have one on this computer along with a flash sequence I've used in the past. It's not hard to do but if that machine starts making voltage and it's shorted internally, the results might not be so desirable. That is what I'm trying to alleviate.
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  #32  
Old 03-03-2017, 06:33:39 PM
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Default Re: Hobart G-213 W/ Wisconsin TJD starting issues

Its ok, I was looking over the schematic and I am going to go point to point and check everything in the field control. The numbers I am getting look like residual magnetism numbers with no field. I will let you know what I find.

I used sand paper to clean the slip rings. I know not to use emory cloth.
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  #33  
Old 03-04-2017, 04:42:25 PM
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Default Re: Hobart G-213 W/ Wisconsin TJD starting issues

Well it is one of those good news bad news things.

Good news I was right about it not get a field.

Bad news is its one of the field coils.

I started breaking connections and checking resistance. I went back to the field wires coming out of the generator. I measured megs. I fished out the field connections for each coil and I had three that were 1.5 ohms and one that was 2 megs.

What ticks me off is I checked the welder out before I tore it down. Everything worked okay. I burned a rod with it, I ran a grinder and skill saw off of it. Everything checked out.

I checked the coil at the leads of the coil so it isn't a bad connection. I guess I am pulling the thing back apart. I know I wont find a coil but I know a motor shop I have dealt with for work that might be able to help me. If not it looks to be 10 awg solid core wire. I will wrap it myself.

---------- Post added at 02:42:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:36:55 PM ----------

Maybe 14 awg instead
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  #34  
Old 03-04-2017, 07:42:25 PM
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Default Re: Hobart G-213 W/ Wisconsin TJD starting issues

It should be 14gauge, (from memory). If you wrap it yourself be certain to count the number of turns removed accurately or it won't weld for shit once back together. What you have found is not surprising. The coil was on it's way out and you probably pushed it over the edge when striking an arc. It happens but I'd pull them all and get a good hard look at them. If you go into rewinding you might as well have the others looked at also. Especially see if they will withstand a "high pot" test to evaluate insulation/varnish quality. An electric motor shop will know what to do.

What you have discovered is a prime reason I didn't want to go right into how to make it generate voltage without t/s first; as I felt something was compromised. The manual you have is from one of my former machines which I supplied to Mike several months ago.

Thanks,
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Old 03-04-2017, 09:33:14 PM
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Default Re: Hobart G-213 W/ Wisconsin TJD starting issues

I don't have a hi-pot here at work but I can do a megger test on them. I will give an update when I have something more figured out.
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Old 03-04-2017, 10:49:44 PM
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Default Re: Hobart G-213 W/ Wisconsin TJD starting issues

Your are on the correct path I feel. I had my 300A Hobart welder reinsulated last fall and the bill was right at $400.00 but it was done complete so be prepared as a G-213 can run the same money when they have problems.

I wish you luck and glad you didn't burn it down getting in a hurry. Seen others follow what I feel is bad, or rather imprudent advice and be very sorry with the outcome.
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Old 03-04-2017, 11:30:07 PM
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Default Re: Hobart G-213 W/ Wisconsin TJD starting issues

I just hate splitting the thing apart again. I figure it will go pretty quick this time. I am going to talk to the guy I have dealt with at the motor shop and see if he cant help me out. Gosh knows I have sent enough money his way.
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Old 03-05-2017, 12:01:41 AM
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Default Re: Hobart G-213 W/ Wisconsin TJD starting issues

I understand your pain completely. I've had my G-213 apart several times through the years replacing this, that, and other things to take it back apart because I may have forget something etc......

Be careful about repairing that welder as one can be purchased that doesn't make any AC power but welds fine for a couple hundred commonly. You have a good rotor, (which is what normally opens) so may be able to use it in another machine and have spare parts.
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Old 03-08-2017, 10:11:28 AM
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Default Re: Hobart G-213 W/ Wisconsin TJD starting issues

Okay, I got it worked out. I was a bone head. It just cost me 2 days to learn the lesson.

I pulled the engine and rotor. I got the coil out and checked it. Still 2 megs. Nothing external. I get it up there to work and take the wrapping off. Long story short it was my fault. When I was repairing the rodent damage. I replaced the field wire that was attached to the winding coming out of the case. I wasn't paying much attention to what the wires were I was just replacing them. Anyway I stripped off the insulation not noticing the wire was magnet wire with insulation over it. The varnish just looked like tarnish. I notice this at work and clean the ends of the wire up and 1.6 ohms. I wrapped it back up heat shrinked the leads and it went back in. Going back together wasn't as quick as coming apart. I redid the splices I had done in the field and replaced the whole length and some connectors. I scraped and sanded ever wire I made a connection. Needless to say I am back making sparks and it works like a charm.

The lesson learned. Don't try to trouble shoot when you working nights. I doubt I would have caught it but it didn't help I was punchy from my work schedule. Other lesson don't assume the wire is good to go under the insulation even if it looks fine. I spliced it right under where the factory splice was but the varnish hadn't been cleaned past the splice. Give it a good cleaning.

Thanks for the help guys.
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