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Generators & Electric Motors General Discussion Antique Generators and Old Electric Motors: Questions and answers about restoring and showing old power generation systems.

Generators & Electric Motors General Discussion

Generator Parts and Frequently Asked Guestions


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  #41  
Old 05-18-2012, 09:19:24 PM
armandh armandh is offline
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Default Re: Generator parts and frequently asked questions.

in the post above copied material suggested that
the generator frame sitting on the ground is sufficient grounding
this assumes no rubber tired wheels I presume.

bonding is a separate issue.
doing things wrong because statistically fewer people get killed
may be right with a lot of things plugged in that have poor maintenance.

of my 4 generators only one is under 5KW
I can see this for the plastic cased hand carried gen sets.

Last edited by armandh; 05-19-2012 at 06:25:15 AM.
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  #42  
Old 05-19-2012, 02:40:05 PM
Power Power is offline
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Default Re: Generator parts and frequently asked questions.

I still don't see how groundinng the generator can be more dangerous.
I tried to paste the pictures from the link - won't.

In short - their position is if someone comes in contact with the hot side - equipment fault - whatever, and gen is grounded, they complete circuit from hot to ground and suffers consequences. They show a stick figure being electrocuted.

If gen is not grounded and person contacts hot side, it is like they are on a rubber mat - no current path. Stick figure does not get shocked.

We could have a long discourse on various what if's. As I said, used to ground them, now do it the OSHA way.

Post 39 - re your electric log splitter. Any tool that is not double insulated should have a ground connection. In a 120v system, that is the green wire to the plug u terminal.

Newer 240 volt dryers & plugs have a 4 wire system with the 4th wire being the ground. Old homes have 3 wire plug in which the neutral is bonded to the dryer frame with a jumper strap at the connection block. This is no longer allowed because there were situations where the dryer frame became live. It is now suggested that the jumper be removed and the cord/plug be replaced with 4 wire or a separate, non current carrying ground be installed.

If your log splitter motor is not double insulated, you would want a wire from the frame to the electrical system ground. Unlike the neutral wire, this wire does not carry current except briefly in the event of a fault.
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  #43  
Old 06-23-2012, 03:59:40 PM
David K David K is offline
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Default Re: Generator parts and frequently asked questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by armandh View Post


however, a little planning can go a long way to avoid illegal back feeds......

putting gas or oil fired furnaces on a short heavy plug and cord to an outlet
where there formerly was a switch [now switch and single outlet combination]
makes extension cords workable feeding appliances. [avoiding the house wiring]

wells are a little trickier but doable.
This is exactly what I am in the process of doing.......My oil fired house heater will be connected with a short, heavy cord/plug. Unplugging it totally seperates it from the utility company. Same thing with the refrigerator, sump pump, a couple lamps, etc.......totally unplugged/disconnected from the utility company. I have never and will never back feed thru the house wiring. I am fully capable of doing it but refuse to.

But now the questions....... What about the well pump? I want to set that up with a heavy cord/plug also. What about the water heater (also oil fired, only a small 120v blower motor)? All the plumbing in the house is plastic but the water in the pipes does conduct electricity which effectively "grounds" the well pump, water heater, and all the plumbing. What is the safest way to connect these things?

FYI....There are rubber vibration isolation mounts between the generator and the frame. And the frame sits on a concrete floor in the barn.

I do not connect the generator to a grounding rod (which seems like the right thing to do until the well pump, etc gets involved in the equation, that changes everything).

Should I put all the generator output thru a GFCI?

Thanks for any help.

Dave
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  #44  
Old 06-23-2012, 09:37:43 PM
Power Power is offline
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Default Re: Generator parts and frequently asked questions.

Should I put all the generator output thru a GFCI

In my opinion, trying to follow the OSHA fact sheet recommendations is a very good idea - newer gensets are required to have all 120 volt outlets mounted on the gen GFCI protected. I would spend extra and use a GFCI f0r each device, that way if one trips, yu do not loose all. If your pump is a deep well submersible, you may have trouble operating it on GFCI.

Re house heat - I put my house heater on cord plug too, but am not sure that is an approved method. I have not found anything in the codebook I interpret as forbidding this, but asked electrical inspector, and he said he would not approve it.
Someone else on this forum may have a definitive answer.
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  #45  
Old 06-24-2012, 07:10:48 AM
armandh armandh is offline
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Default Re: Generator parts and frequently asked questions.

re 240 volt plug in stuff and GFI

I have seen 240 volt GFI breakers [common with hot tub connections]

but first megger the well system

most permanent appliances are exempt from GFI outlet requirement

and keeping one from tripping may be a problem if there is any leakage
[assuming submersible pump]
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  #46  
Old 06-24-2012, 08:12:55 AM
David K David K is offline
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Default Re: Generator parts and frequently asked questions.

It's a shallow well pump. 1/2 hp, 120/240 volt setup for 120 volts so i can run it on my generator.

Dave
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  #47  
Old 03-25-2016, 10:41:33 PM
1215 1215 is offline
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Default Re: Generator parts and frequently asked questions.

I generally disagree with the idea of this FAQ.
My brother in law is a lineman and we've never seen eye-to-eye since I met his sister.

Am I too new to make comments like that?

*** Because I'm new, for anyone reading this who didn't get it, if you plug a generator into your home breaker box without disconnecting from the lines coming in from the pole you will "back-feed" power back into the grid --so you can literally kill the lineman trying to fix the wires five miles down the road.
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  #48  
Old 03-26-2016, 02:57:04 PM
len k len k is offline
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Default Re: Generator parts and frequently asked questions.

Old thread but I want to bring up a point.
I'm no expert on NEC code, but I remember reading something in EMC magazine. Said something along the lines of code doesn't allow "permanently" installed appliances to be powered from a plug, they wanted it hardwired. Guess over the years a regular plug would sag, pull out, and make a poor connection. Vibration, getting bumped.

Would guess a furnace and well are considered permanent. Might explain why they sell one circuit $95 transfer switches for a furnace.
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  #49  
Old 03-26-2016, 04:50:13 PM
Power Power is offline
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Default Re: Generator parts and frequently asked questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by len k View Post
Old thread but I want to bring up a point.
I'm no expert on NEC code, but I remember reading something in EMC magazine. Said something along the lines of code doesn't allow "permanently" installed appliances to be powered from a plug, they wanted it hardwired. Guess over the years a regular plug would sag, pull out, and make a poor connection. Vibration, getting bumped.

Would guess a furnace and well are considered permanent. Might explain why they sell one circuit $95 transfer switches for a furnace.
Now you got ME confused!!!!!

When installing cooktops/ ranges we are required to install a range outlet in the wall, and use a range cord with plug.

When installing electric dryers, we are require to mount a dryer outlet and use a plug and cord to dryer.

When installing dishwashers and garbage disposals, we are required to go cord and plug.

My understanding is this is for convenience and safety of appliance repair person.

Aren't above permanently installed?
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  #50  
Old 03-26-2016, 07:47:52 PM
len k len k is offline
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Default Re: Generator parts and frequently asked questions.

I did think about the garbage disposal example, it seems the most obvious gray area.
It might be plugged because they do go bad, and some come with cord and plug from the factory. Think ours did.I used it with and extension cord when needed till rotor rusted off the motor shaft.

Seems stand alone (stand on floor) stoves and ovens should be plugged as they are easily removeable. Our built into counter top stove-top and built into wall oven are hardwired. Our house is 59 years old, codes likely change over the years.
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