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Questions on Fairbanks Morse


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  #1  
Old 10-01-2007, 01:44:13 PM
Shine Stringer Shine Stringer is offline
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Default Questions on Fairbanks Morse

A rare engine for this area, solid casting block & water hopper, magneto, igniter, fuel reservoir & mixer valve on side with pump, unused fuel returns to tank. Model Z 3 hp serial 013484. No one around here has ever seen an engine like this. Can some one tell me any thing about it? When it was built?
thanks ''shine''
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  #2  
Old 10-01-2007, 02:13:33 PM
Robert Haus Robert Haus is offline
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Default Re: questions fairbanks morse

These are excellent little engines...sorry I don't have my s/n list with me right now, but I can tell you if it has the Sumter rotary mag it is pre 1918, the late 1917-early1918/1919 models went to the plugoscillator...given the serial number you gave it would have to be an older one, even older than mine which is a 1916.

These were made as gasoline only or gasoline/kerosene...look for a water injection valve on the head for the kerosene models (this prevents detonation while running kero...probably one of the earliest uses of ADI, which became popular on ww2 radials)....they are pretty straight fwd engines that run well and are relatively easy to get parts for....they run smoother under a load, tend to miss a little at a no-load idle....see video link below.

rh



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IujTXI0Vic
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Old 10-01-2007, 02:46:42 PM
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Harry Harry is offline
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Default Re: Questions on Fairbanks Morse

OK, I'm confused. Which came first, the Sumter rotary or the Sumter Plugoscillator? If I read you correctly, the rotary was first. Does anyone have all the magneto types listed by years?

http://www.old-engine.com/fairbank.htm
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Old 10-01-2007, 03:55:07 PM
Robert Haus Robert Haus is offline
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Default Re: Questions on Fairbanks Morse

Yes, the rotary was used first...I don't know exactly where the break occured, probably late 1917 (maybe someone knows the s/n break?) ...then they went to the plugoscillator.

My 1916 uses the Sumter #12....I understand the later plugoscillators used were a 14, an 18, and maybe a 22 on the larger engines. In 1920 they went to high tension ignition with the Bosch AB33...then they came out with their own type R mag around 1924 (I think)

My understanding is that the exact yr and s/n breaks are different for different sized engines (eg, a 10 horse may have been changed over later than the 3 horse) ...this may make finding the exact breaks in the production run harder to locate.


Does anyone have a comprehensive build list for F-M? ...I have heard that some of the records for the Z engines were lost after the ZC line was sold in the 1950's.

thanks,
rh
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Old 10-01-2007, 08:31:15 PM
Robert Haus Robert Haus is offline
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Default Re: Questions on Fairbanks Morse

Shine,

I got home and took a look at my serial number list...you said this was a Z model, s/n: 013484 ...is it possible that the number was a bit illegible? ....013484 would have to have been made in 1910 or before, the first engine for 1911 was number 100408.

The problem is that the Z engines didn't come out until July of 1914....and the 3 horses didn't come out until 1915.

If the number you gave is correct, could it be a type H instead of a Z?

A photo would easily confirm this...and either way, we'd all like to see the pics of your find anyway!


And, regarding magnetos I did some more checking (rather than trusting my memory) and found the following: The Z's were fitted with the sumter #12, then the #22, and later the #25...then the plugoscillators came on them in 1918/1919....the reason for all the changes (leading to the HT mags in 1920) being to cure hard starting.......even still, it was ahead of its time--most used batteries and coil to drive the ignitor.

...as a side note, I've had very little trouble starting mine since I added a coil and battery...start on the battery then throw the switch to change to the mag...works great.

thanks,

rh
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:40:23 PM
lister d lister d is offline
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Default Re: Questions on Fairbanks Morse

Hi ,can you tell me more about the water injection. My IHC M uses it and I don't really understand. Thank you
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Old 10-02-2007, 01:35:11 AM
Robert Haus Robert Haus is offline
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Default Re: Questions on Fairbanks Morse

The main principle behind ADI (anti-detonant-injection) or water injection is that the water entering the intake stream cools the charge as it is vaporized by the engine's heat. A cooler charge is less likely to suffer from pre-ignition, knock, and the like.

On our old engines this is usually provided for by taking some of the water from the cooling jacket...the valve is used to adjust the flow as needed...depending on the operating load, temperature, fuel, etc. This is primarily found on engines intended to burn kerosene or other low octane fuel. With water injection, you could still have the higher compression ratio used with a gasoline fueled engine...therefore you could get a bit more power out of it than you would get if you had to lower the compression ratio enough to burn kerosene without knocking under load.

During WW2 this principle was applied to the large radial engines such as the R-2800, 3350, 4360, etc...In this case it was usually a mixture of water and alcohol supplied from a tank and the metering system was far more complex....some of the designs were so well automated that the ADI would only be activated under high power settings such as at take-off when you would have the highest values of supercharger boost, fuel flow, temp, etc....WEP or "war emergency power" would be another such condition.

This is still used on the aircraft that they race at Reno each year.

Detonation can destroy one of these high power aircraft engines in a matter of seconds...and for the most part, the pilot and/or flight engineer cannot hear it...therefore most of the boost pressures, rpm values, etc were determined via test cell runs and extrapolation as needed.


I have been curious as to what was the first use of ADI on a production engine. I'm guessing somewhere between 1905 and 1915....my 1916 Fairbanks-Morse has it....what year is your IHC?

thanks,
rh
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Old 10-02-2007, 06:55:39 AM
Shine Stringer Shine Stringer is offline
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Default

The serial # I gave is correct. The name tag appears to be original, it is stamped 3 hp.

When I figure out how, I will post a photo. If all this info turns out to be true, what is the engine worth? It runs great, like you said it starts better on battery and then switched to mag.
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Old 10-02-2007, 10:43:28 AM
KidDynamo KidDynamo is offline
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Default Re: Questions on Fairbanks Morse

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry View Post
OK, I'm confused. Which came first, the Sumter rotary or the Sumter Plugoscillator? If I read you correctly, the rotary was first. Does anyone have all the magneto types listed by years?

http://www.old-engine.com/fairbank.htm
The literature I have is not that simply organized. It is generally in text form and in many cases, there are blocks of serial numbers when simple changes occurred and then a list of engines that were exceptions can follow.

Response to your question is simple. A photo of a plugoscillator 3 and 6 horse example with text below reads:

"This shows the 3 and 6 H.P. "Z" engine with gear driven (Rotary) Sumter Magneto. Built previous to 3 H.P. Engine No. 268918 and 6 H.P. Engine No. 267230."

Beyond this is a list of "minor" changes to the cylinder heads, reservoirs, Subases, fuel piping and tank, silencer, and butterfly and shaft.

It is definitely a case of "fine print" ! Hope this clears the air on the basic rotary mag changeover of the 3 & 6's and why the questions are not always answered in simple terms (or at all).
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Old 10-02-2007, 11:43:15 AM
Shine Stringer Shine Stringer is offline
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Default Re: Questions on Fairbanks Morse

I have not yet figured this site out completely, please excuse my ignorance. I would like some suggestions on how to build a bubble machine. I have a blacksmith shop and a grist mill on a trailer powered by a 3 hp Fairbanks Morse, a 1 1/2 IHC LA and an 8 horse Fairbanks. I also have an air compressor, a rather large forge blower and plenty of flywheel power. Please advise.
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Old 10-03-2007, 02:38:16 AM
Redwing Redwing is offline
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Default Re: Questions on Fairbanks Morse

Interesting, I learn some new about mags on early F&M Z.

and later I saw one on ebay, 1916 with rotary mag. item# 170153806841



I had early 1917 F&M Canadian 6hp, with missing mag. I was search for type of mag for while, no luck and I sold it 2 years ago.
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