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Powering Diesel Gensets


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  #21  
Old 03-11-2017, 09:14:48 AM
Jim Marcozzi Jim Marcozzi is offline
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Default Re: Powering Diesel Gensets

And when you get an earthquake and the nat gas lines are broken, my Diesel genset still has 240 gallons of #1 fuel in the tank!
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Old 03-11-2017, 09:36:29 AM
willie1959 willie1959 is offline
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Default Re: Powering Diesel Gensets

Did this on a cheap china diesel 6.5 hp Ran propane as main fuel I never had any problem used old veggy oil as well. On an onan that you want for emergency power no but for experimenting ya

It ran for 12 years it was wore out to the point it did not have enough compression to start. These China engines where only $200 at first hard to find today

propane is half the cost of diesel here

hint I used a standard demand regulator and a bypass in the injector line to reduce the fuel injected after it had been warmed .
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  #23  
Old 03-11-2017, 09:38:36 AM
DustyBar DustyBar is offline
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Default Re: Powering Diesel Gensets

I've often wondered about this dual fuel method for gasoline engines. The exhaust oxygen sensor is used to control the fuel mixture. I've heard Ford engines will set a trouble code if it detects more fuel in the exhaust than expected for a specific injector fuel flow. Supposedly GM's pcm are more tolerant and ignore this unusual condition. A friend of mine installs propane and natural gas conversions on new Ford pickups which is where I got this info. He has done over 3000 of them in the last five years.
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  #24  
Old 03-11-2017, 12:03:09 PM
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Jim McIntyre Jim McIntyre is offline
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Default Re: Powering Diesel Gensets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey NY View Post
I have heard of some people doing hydrogen boosting in cars, to get better fuel mileage. I forget where I read that though. It might be more feasible and user friendly than trying to mix in nat. gas or propane on a genset .
And next you're going to tell us the hydrogen is generated by using electricity to break down water, right?

There is nothing to be gained by this approach.
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  #25  
Old 03-11-2017, 06:03:12 PM
len k len k is offline
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Default Re: Powering Diesel Gensets

Hydrogen is non cheap. It won't liquefy using reasonable means ( 33 degs above absolute zero). They commonly transport it as a gas in small dia ( ~ 14 inch) long high pressure tanks on tractor trailers, not cheap for what you get.
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Old 03-11-2017, 06:35:25 PM
turtmaster turtmaster is offline
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Question Re: Powering Diesel Gensets

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Originally Posted by gnucklehead View Post
I have an IDI chinese diesel for that I even have gasoline sets
gnucklehead, what kind of china diesel dou you have, i have a 1999 changchai s1100 belt driving a 10kw st head, right now i am in the process of converting it to thermosiphon cooling, and adding safety shutdowns, and mods ect,

-Joe
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  #27  
Old 03-11-2017, 06:49:46 PM
Kevin K Kevin K is offline
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Default Re: Powering Diesel Gensets

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Originally Posted by Mikey NY View Post
I have heard of some people doing hydrogen boosting in cars, to get better fuel mileage. I forget where I read that though.
I have a friend that did that a number of years ago to a Ford explorer. He had a large container of water and a gadget the produced hydrogen through Electrolysis, which was then fed into the air intake. He claimed it greatly increased his gas mileage. So I asked the obvious question: "How much did it improve your mileage? What was the typical mileage before and after you installed the hydrogen boosting?". I received the typical answer: "I don't know. I never took mileage readings. But it has to be a lot".
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  #28  
Old 03-11-2017, 07:11:50 PM
Charley K Charley K is offline
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Default Re: Powering Diesel Gensets

I did the hydrogen thing on my truck after an engineer friend proved on paper it would not work. Had to try anyway. Had some pretty cool looking generators, they even appeared to be working( hydrogen bubbles)......... a total bust. I would have been better off farting in the carburetor. CK
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Old 03-11-2017, 07:32:48 PM
len k len k is offline
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Default Re: Powering Diesel Gensets

When I used to drive 2.75 hours on highway I found if it was humid or raining it seamed I got better gas mileage. I'ld fill up with gas just before I left and then look at gas gauge when I arrived. Think difference was ~ 1/8 tank or less. , 20 gal tank, ~ 3 gal/hr burn rate
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  #30  
Old 03-11-2017, 08:07:34 PM
gnucklehead gnucklehead is online now
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Default Re: Powering Diesel Gensets

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtmaster View Post
gnucklehead, what kind of china diesel dou you have, i have a 1999 changchai s1100 belt driving a 10kw st head, right now i am in the process of converting it to thermosiphon cooling, and adding safety shutdowns, and mods ect,

-Joe
It's a tiny 4HP 170F, air-cooled horizontal cylinder. I mix 50/50 diesel/Veggie oil in warmer weather, or I can get it started on diesel then use exhaust heat to warm up straight veggie oil. It can be fickle, but it works.

My take on the HHO - I believe it takes more energy to separate the water molecules than you get out of it.. Maybe with a vehicle, if operated at just the right spot in the fuel consumption (torque) curve there might be a slight increase in mileage
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  #31  
Old 03-11-2017, 08:41:58 PM
Vanman Vanman is offline
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Default Re: Powering Diesel Gensets

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Originally Posted by gnucklehead View Post
My take on the HHO - I believe it takes more energy to separate the water molecules than you get out of it.. :
Right, assuming ALL of the hydrogen combusts, the percentage that you get out is equal your engine's thermal efficiency, so let's say, 25%. But then, in order to make that hydrogen requires ALL of the energy released in combustion, PLUS the losses in electrolysis, plus the losses in the generator. That energy came from your generator, which is driven by your engine, of course.

Let's say that the combined efficiency of the generator and electrolizer is 50% So the engine has to drive the generator with eight times as much power as the hydrogen is displacing in gasoline.

So you have a circulating energy path with losses at every step, and ALL of THAT energy comes from your gas tank.

WHY do people keep falling for *free energy* and- gag me with a spoon- *over unity* for christ's sake??? This is basic high school physics!!!
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  #32  
Old 03-11-2017, 08:46:42 PM
len k len k is offline
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Default Re: Powering Diesel Gensets

Sounds like hydrogen may improve gasoline mileage if you don't included it's cost, seems it's just another fuel so you use less gasoline that you are measuring. Not really a valid comparison, could just as well add propane and not account for propane consumption. (Incorrectly assume free propane.)

Last edited by len k; 03-11-2017 at 08:57:56 PM.
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  #33  
Old 03-11-2017, 09:11:52 PM
Vanman Vanman is offline
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Default Re: Powering Diesel Gensets

Yeah, if you electrolized the water at home, then loaded it into a tank in the car, that would work. But I think that these gimiks on the internet are powered from the car's electrical system. As you have pointed out, storing any meaningful quality is difficult at best.
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  #34  
Old 03-11-2017, 09:27:34 PM
len k len k is offline
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Default Re: Powering Diesel Gensets

Yes , hydrogen is mostly just a means to transport energy. You have to make it from some other energy source, you don't find it in the ground. Doesn't make sense to burn it in an internal combustion engine because of losses.

Actually with hydrogen it's more efficient to use a fuel cell to convert it directly to electricity rather than burn it. ( electric car)

I calculate my Onan 7NHM is at best ~ 17% efficient, converting fuel to electricity (best @ full load). Cars likely ~ same.

Utility steam turbines plants are at best 40 % efficient ( @ full load, drops off fast at partial load)

Fuel cells can be much higher, maybe 2X.
We did R&D on fuel cells at GE, even made some types that went in spacecraft.
Used in space because they were lighter than bats. That should be good for electric cars if can get price & life right.

Last edited by len k; 03-11-2017 at 09:39:01 PM.
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  #35  
Old 03-11-2017, 10:20:42 PM
Vanman Vanman is offline
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Default Re: Powering Diesel Gensets

I think that the Appolo missions used hydrogen and oxygen powered fuel cells, didn't they?

Seems that the power density of them has improved dramatically. I remember quite some time ago reading about a van powered by them, and they took up most of the inside of the van! Recently I understand that there are now viable fuel cell cars. Pretty cool.
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Old 03-11-2017, 11:06:03 PM
len k len k is offline
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Default Re: Powering Diesel Gensets

Apollo yes. Believe it was the teflon polymer separator type.

Many types of fuel cells: molten carbonate, phosphoric acid, and others.
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Old 03-12-2017, 08:09:58 AM
Mikey NY Mikey NY is offline
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Default Re: Powering Diesel Gensets

Im pretty sure I read the hydrogen boosting article in a book published by Steven Harris. He is the engineer that worked for Chrysler in the 80's ? and helped develop the flexible fuel vehicle. You know that brilliant idea of running cars on e-85. ethanol laced gasoline. Maybe he is to blame for all this bad gas BS. One of His books is full of doomsday survival tip and tricks. I think my brother gave me the book yrs ago. I will try to find it today, but I may have used it to start the fire in the woodstove a few yrs back when the power went out. Anyone using e-85 in their genset? No me. I may try wood gas on one of my screamers someday just for fun though
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  #38  
Old 03-20-2017, 05:33:01 PM
Utah Onan Utah Onan is offline
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Default Re: Powering Diesel Gensets

This right here is why this site is AMAZING!!! Great feedback, response, opinions, expertise & experience with the what, in this particular case, I have asked about.
THANK YOU ALL!!!
NOW...
So this stemmed out of my post about what makes a J-series so great (seen here https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=165008). Up until recently, I had no desire to have a diesel genset. They didn't interest me. Especially with where I live, I have natural gas service to my house and I just ran an 1 1/4" plastic gas line to my detached garage where my generator would live. Then my dad and I got talking about generators & the like. Here in Utah, it's forecasted (some day) that a BIG earthquake is going to rock the valley. If that's true, most, if not all, natural gas service will be disrupted because the big lines that feed this valley all cross mountain ranges & fault lines. It was my dad's wisdom in teaching me that diesel would be way easier to source than natural gas or propane in a disaster on the scale of this potential earthquake. Hence a change for me in wanting to obtain a diesel genset.
Now, the bifuel aspect. With having my genset "run" on both natural gas & diesel, I can lengthen the time that the generator can operate on a single gallon of diesel. I. E. if a 12 DJC uses 1.05 gallons of fuel per hour @ full load, then a 12 DJC that is bi-fuel would use LESS than a gallon of fuel per hour thus lengthening my potential run time on a total amount of diesel.
YES, after an earthquake, this scenario would NOT be possible. No natural gas. But during any other sort of power outage where natural gas supply is not interrupted, then away I go!
And if/when natural gas failed while the generator was in operation, then it would just return to full diesel operation.

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  #39  
Old 03-20-2017, 08:08:45 PM
Max Thompson Max Thompson is offline
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Default Re: Powering Diesel Gensets

How much diesel would you plan to store?

Are you in a rural or suburban setting? Any restrictions on stored fuel?

How often would you consume 50% or more of your stored diesel? Diesel will degrade over time without some maintenance. Do you have a diesel vehicle that you could “use up” the aging diesel in, then replenish the tank?

Propane can be stored indefinitely. A gaseous fueled JC will run on natural gas or propane with only minor carb adjustments between the two. You can store 500 gallons or more of propane underground without the headaches and red tape that come with underground diesel tanks. In a “major disaster” scenario like you are talking, the only diesel that will be available will be what is in vehicles or what you have stored. There will likely be no way to get it out of station tanks unless they have back up power also.

In a long term situation (major disaster) a person could likely get by with less power than a JC. A 7.5 JB or smaller set would keep the essentials powered. I would do some serious thinking about all aspects of what you plan to do. If you are really concerned with a long term outage (weeks, not days) you should probably be looking at something smaller than a JC, or a smaller set to back up the back up.

In any case, I would be looking for a 15 KW not a 12.5 JC, the cost per KW to operate is the same.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:00:31 PM
David C David C is offline
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Default Re: Powering Diesel Gensets

If you have the room and you want to be prepared, keep a diesel set and a NG fueled set ready to run. You can't have too many Onans.
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