Generators and Motors
[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Library] - [Photo Gallery] - [Groups] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Links] - [Books] - [Sponsors] -

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® Vintage Electrical Equipment > Generators & Motors General Discussion > Onan Generators
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Onan Generators Restoring, operating and maintaining vintage Onan generators.

Onan Generators

FAIL 1st power outage with Onan 45 OEM-15r 9296C and OTOCA 5566643 Spec A


this thread has 41 replies and has been viewed 1374 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-13-2017, 06:30:00 PM
gjinc gjinc is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Caro, Michigan, USA
Posts: 90
Thanks: 35
Thanked 10 Times in 8 Posts
Default FAIL 1st power outage with Onan 45 OEM-15r 9296C and OTOCA 5566643 Spec A

HI,
Last Thursday I had my first power outage with my generator. Everything worked good for 2 hours then fail...
Engine went to 3000rpm, voltage and Hz was very high. No over freq light, no over speed light, no shut down. With all the monitoring in the transfer switch, I thought it would disconnect when out of limits, but it only showed out of limits and showed NOT Available, did not disconnect or shut down the generator.
I figured out pretty quick that the electronic speed control failed. After a couple of hours of troubleshooting I found a c clip on the actuator out of a groove, snapped that back in. I reset it to 1851 rpm's but had about 150 rpm drop when the heat pump would start. So now with a new speed control box I'm waiting for the next outage.

I need to know if the transfer switch, OTOCA 5566643 spec A is suppose to drop the connection or shut down the generator when it is out of limits?
I also thought the engine control 332-2595 F would also shut the generator down for over freq or over speed?

Any suggestions?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 03-13-2017, 06:47:40 PM
Billy J Shafer's Avatar
Billy J Shafer Billy J Shafer is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Centerville, Texas
Posts: 15,760
Thanks: 7,994
Thanked 12,977 Times in 6,114 Posts
Default Re: FAIL 1st power outage with Onan 45 OEM-15r 9296C and OTOCA 5566643 Spec A

The transfer switch will not shut down the generator until all timers are complete. It will look for the highest source of voltage then switch to that source. Over speed control should have shut the system down.
__________________
I don't talk to myself. This early in the morning. Why the hell should I talk to you.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Billy J Shafer For This Post:
  #3  
Old 03-13-2017, 06:53:44 PM
Onan Dan's Avatar
Onan Dan Onan Dan is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Waynesburg, Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,508
Thanks: 7,620
Thanked 2,531 Times in 1,302 Posts
Default Re: FAIL 1st power outage with Onan 45 OEM-15r 9296C and OTOCA 5566643 Spec A

Maybe you can answer a question my brother has a heat pump for his home heat and ac what amps would it need to operate I am not sure of btu or anything. thanks
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-13-2017, 07:08:11 PM
gjinc gjinc is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Caro, Michigan, USA
Posts: 90
Thanks: 35
Thanked 10 Times in 8 Posts
Default Re: FAIL 1st power outage with Onan 45 OEM-15r 9296C and OTOCA 5566643 Spec A

HI, my heat pump has a "soft start" installed. It stops flickering lights when it turns on and helps generators when connected. Start with looking at what size circuit breaker the heat pump is on.

---------- Post added at 07:08:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:05:43 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy J Shafer View Post
The transfer switch will not shut down the generator until all timers are complete. It will look for the highest source of voltage then switch to that source. Over speed control should have shut the system down.
So all the monitoring is only for connecting the power...darn

I was hoping for a easy answer, how is the engine control suppose to shut the generator down?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to gjinc For This Post:
  #5  
Old 03-13-2017, 07:12:30 PM
Wayne 440 Wayne 440 is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 4,699
Thanks: 279
Thanked 3,776 Times in 1,796 Posts
Default Re: FAIL 1st power outage with Onan 45 OEM-15r 9296C and OTOCA 5566643 Spec A

Is this the set that you retrofitted an aftermarket electronic governor to?

If so, did you verify operation of the overspeed function after installing same?

Billy- is overspeed an option on the EM as it is on the JC sets???
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-13-2017, 07:31:59 PM
gjinc gjinc is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Caro, Michigan, USA
Posts: 90
Thanks: 35
Thanked 10 Times in 8 Posts
Default Re: FAIL 1st power outage with Onan 45 OEM-15r 9296C and OTOCA 5566643 Spec A

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne 440 View Post
Is this the set that you retrofitted an aftermarket electronic governor to?

If so, did you verify operation of the overspeed function after installing same?

Billy- is overspeed an option on the EM as it is on the JC sets???
Yes, I bought the speed sensor and actuator, the electronic speed control was on the unit. It tested great so I didn't replace it.
With the new speed control I put on today, I do see a difference, a lot more sensitive.

I never oversped the unit , I never over temp it either.

---------- Post added at 07:31:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:19:32 PM ----------

I will clarify, the controller was giving to me by the guy I got the generator from.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-13-2017, 07:34:08 PM
Wayne 440 Wayne 440 is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 4,699
Thanks: 279
Thanked 3,776 Times in 1,796 Posts
Default Re: FAIL 1st power outage with Onan 45 OEM-15r 9296C and OTOCA 5566643 Spec A

IIRC, the overspeed switch is in the generator end bell and provides a ground to the control board on overspeed. The switch could be stuck or dirty, wire broken, etc.
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Wayne 440 For This Post:
  #8  
Old 03-13-2017, 07:41:55 PM
Billy J Shafer's Avatar
Billy J Shafer Billy J Shafer is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Centerville, Texas
Posts: 15,760
Thanks: 7,994
Thanked 12,977 Times in 6,114 Posts
Default Re: FAIL 1st power outage with Onan 45 OEM-15r 9296C and OTOCA 5566643 Spec A

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjinc View Post
HI, my heat pump has a "soft start" installed. It stops flickering lights when it turns on and helps generators when connected. Start with looking at what size circuit breaker the heat pump is on.

---------- Post added at 07:08:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:05:43 PM ----------


So all the monitoring is only for connecting the power...darn

I was hoping for a easy answer, how is the engine control suppose to shut the generator down?
The transfer switch will call for a start on low or loss of power. When power returns it will go into time delay to normal. Then it will transfer to normal power. If it sees a dip in normal power. It will transfer back to emergency. When normal power returns and is good for the time delay. It will transfer back to normal and go into time delay stop. If normal power drops. It will go back through the system again.

The engine control will shut off the system. When it receives a shutdown fault or the normal shutdown command.

---------- Post added at 06:41:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38:43 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjinc View Post
Yes, I bought the speed sensor and actuator, the electronic speed control was on the unit. It tested great so I didn't replace it.
With the new speed control I put on today, I do see a difference, a lot more sensitive.

I never oversped the unit , I never over temp it either.

---------- Post added at 07:31:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:19:32 PM ----------

I will clarify, the controller was giving to me by the guy I got the generator from.
I have never seen an overspeed as an option on the large units. On the early ones it was the same as the JC units. Later ones had the option of an overspeed board or the JC type.
__________________
I don't talk to myself. This early in the morning. Why the hell should I talk to you.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Billy J Shafer For This Post:
  #9  
Old 03-13-2017, 08:26:12 PM
Motorhead's Avatar
Motorhead Motorhead is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Coast, California
Posts: 3,004
Thanks: 1,242
Thanked 1,826 Times in 1,038 Posts
Default Re: FAIL 1st power outage with Onan 45 OEM-15r 9296C and OTOCA 5566643 Spec A

I wonder if a stand alone over-speed system could be built or adapted that would kill the engine if the RPM exceeded the set limit. Kind of like a "Murphy" switch or a Tachometer with a rev limiter.
__________________
Back of 1958 5CCK
Contractors model
On trailer owned by
"Ma" Bell.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-13-2017, 09:02:33 PM
Billy J Shafer's Avatar
Billy J Shafer Billy J Shafer is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Centerville, Texas
Posts: 15,760
Thanks: 7,994
Thanked 12,977 Times in 6,114 Posts
Default Re: FAIL 1st power outage with Onan 45 OEM-15r 9296C and OTOCA 5566643 Spec A

I think at one time Murphy did build one. May still do.
__________________
I don't talk to myself. This early in the morning. Why the hell should I talk to you.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-13-2017, 09:04:55 PM
gjinc gjinc is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Caro, Michigan, USA
Posts: 90
Thanks: 35
Thanked 10 Times in 8 Posts
Default Re: FAIL 1st power outage with Onan 45 OEM-15r 9296C and OTOCA 5566643 Spec A

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne 440 View Post
IIRC, the overspeed switch is in the generator end bell and provides a ground to the control board on overspeed. The switch could be stuck or dirty, wire broken, etc.
Ok, I found it. I will check it out tomorrow. 150-0717


How does the engine control shut down the generator? what does it send (ground-power) and where does it send it-does it tell the transfer switch to shut it down?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-13-2017, 09:36:51 PM
Billy J Shafer's Avatar
Billy J Shafer Billy J Shafer is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Centerville, Texas
Posts: 15,760
Thanks: 7,994
Thanked 12,977 Times in 6,114 Posts
Default Re: FAIL 1st power outage with Onan 45 OEM-15r 9296C and OTOCA 5566643 Spec A

Depending on the system. It will ground or open the system. At the main control board. The transfer switch shuts down after it has gone through the timers. If normal power is off when genset shuts down. It will get dark.
__________________
I don't talk to myself. This early in the morning. Why the hell should I talk to you.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-13-2017, 09:41:24 PM
gjinc gjinc is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Caro, Michigan, USA
Posts: 90
Thanks: 35
Thanked 10 Times in 8 Posts
Default Re: FAIL 1st power outage with Onan 45 OEM-15r 9296C and OTOCA 5566643 Spec A

I understand the timers. but looking at the schematic, I don't see what shuts it down. If I can see how it shuts down then i can start looking. Not knowing what it suppose to do, i don't know where to even start looking
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to gjinc For This Post:
  #14  
Old 03-13-2017, 10:47:35 PM
EricWood's Avatar
EricWood EricWood is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: West Concord, Minnesota USA
Posts: 1,847
Thanks: 225
Thanked 1,275 Times in 708 Posts
Default Re: FAIL 1st power outage with Onan 45 OEM-15r 9296C and OTOCA 5566643 Spec A

gjinc,

If I understand this thread correctly, you're being told of where to look for the overspeed protection on the generator, which is a magnetically restrained centrifugal switch, that is located on the tail end of the generator shaft at the rear of the set, behind the cover. It is for shutting the generator down in the event of uncontrolled high speed engine operation, and has nothing to do with the transfer switch.

The transfer switch, which would have to have the overvoltage feature enabled/set correctly, would only disconnect from the errant source, if the other power source was available and accepted by the controls. There is no "load shed" feature to overvoltage protection. Overvoltage protection only worked on these switches to switch from the out of spec power source, to a good source, if available.

If you wanted an OTPC switch to disconnect upon overvoltage, you would have to have the "Load Shed" module kit installed, and add an independent overvoltage sensor (such as made by TimeMark), and wire its normally open contact to operate a DC-powered latching relay, that would require you to go push a normally closed, spring-loaded momentary button to unlatch it and restore generator power once it was acceptable again. (double-pole DC relay; one set of contacts latches in the relay, the other set of contacts latches in the load shed signal)

Last edited by EricWood; 03-13-2017 at 10:49:54 PM. Reason: removed comments about incorrect transfer switch
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to EricWood For This Post:
  #15  
Old 03-13-2017, 11:08:46 PM
gjinc gjinc is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Caro, Michigan, USA
Posts: 90
Thanks: 35
Thanked 10 Times in 8 Posts
Default Re: FAIL 1st power outage with Onan 45 OEM-15r 9296C and OTOCA 5566643 Spec A

Thanks Eric, that's what I wanted to know about the transfer switch.
I found the switch on the tail end.
Now the only thing I need to figure out is how the engine control shuts down
the generator when a fault occurs. The switch or sensor trips a fault, light comes on,
then how does it shut the unit dow?
Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-13-2017, 11:23:02 PM
Motorhead's Avatar
Motorhead Motorhead is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Coast, California
Posts: 3,004
Thanks: 1,242
Thanked 1,826 Times in 1,038 Posts
Default Re: FAIL 1st power outage with Onan 45 OEM-15r 9296C and OTOCA 5566643 Spec A

The way I would see that the centrifugal switch shuts the engine and generator down would be that the engine ignition system runs through a normally closed relay. When the centrifugal switch trips, it then grounds the normally closed relay electromagnetic coil which opens and disconnects the power supplied to the engines ignition system. If your engine has a standard points ignition system then when the centrifugal switch tripped and grounded, it would ground out the POINTS side of the ignition coil.
__________________
Back of 1958 5CCK
Contractors model
On trailer owned by
"Ma" Bell.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Motorhead For This Post:
  #17  
Old 03-13-2017, 11:34:10 PM
gjinc gjinc is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Caro, Michigan, USA
Posts: 90
Thanks: 35
Thanked 10 Times in 8 Posts
Default Re: FAIL 1st power outage with Onan 45 OEM-15r 9296C and OTOCA 5566643 Spec A

Thanks, that makes sense. i am trying to read the schematic as to what relay, what terminals the signal travel through to find what is not working. I don't know if a wire, relay, or if engine control board is bad
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-13-2017, 11:59:19 PM
EricWood's Avatar
EricWood EricWood is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: West Concord, Minnesota USA
Posts: 1,847
Thanks: 225
Thanked 1,275 Times in 708 Posts
Default Re: FAIL 1st power outage with Onan 45 OEM-15r 9296C and OTOCA 5566643 Spec A

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjinc View Post
Thanks, that makes sense. i am trying to read the schematic as to what relay, what terminals the signal travel through to find what is not working. I don't know if a wire, relay, or if engine control board is bad
Reference the attached diagram. Your 5-light control board opens the circuit to your K12's B-side of the coil for all alarms, to shut down switched B+, which powers your fuel solenoid and ignition. (K12 is the relay on the upper right side interior of your control box, closest to the door.

Are you saying that you can trip overspeed and the unit doesn't shut down? A couple things about those overspeed switches. They are seldom activated. That being said, rust can sieze them up, or make the pivoting movement more difficult to move, that the actual trip point is inconsistent, or much higher than necessary. Add some lube to the pivot points, and move it by hand several times, until you can flick it, and it returns back to the magnet by itself. Also, the button bolt it makes contact with--long ago they were alloy coated, but, they will corrode over time, and/or get coated with grime and dirt, to where the pivot arm isn't getting the grounding signal through it all. Rip off a small piece of scotchbrite pad and shine that screw up if needed.

Not sure if that's the answer you were looking for. If not, could you restate your exact question, as to what you believe is not working, and what led you to that conclusion.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	5-Light Diagram.png
Views:	14
Size:	104.9 KB
ID:	277429  
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to EricWood For This Post:
  #19  
Old 03-14-2017, 12:18:24 AM
gjinc gjinc is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Caro, Michigan, USA
Posts: 90
Thanks: 35
Thanked 10 Times in 8 Posts
Default Re: FAIL 1st power outage with Onan 45 OEM-15r 9296C and OTOCA 5566643 Spec A

Thank You. That will help me out greatly! I could not follow it on the schematic.
I do not know if the light was on or not, I shut it down as soon as I saw the rpms.
I remember sometime in the past that I had a light on and it was still running. When I got around to checking it out, I never got any lights again while testing.
I'll check this out tomorrow.
Have a nice evening
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-14-2017, 03:33:09 PM
gjinc gjinc is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Caro, Michigan, USA
Posts: 90
Thanks: 35
Thanked 10 Times in 8 Posts
Default Re: FAIL 1st power outage with Onan 45 OEM-15r 9296C and OTOCA 5566643 Spec A

Ok, I cleaned the over speed switch and the contacts. It works pretty good now.
It will trip the light on the engine control but does not shut down the generator
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump

Similar Threads Chosen at Random
Thread Thread Starter F o r u m Replies Last Post
Onan 45 OEM-15r and OTOCA 5566643 Spec A 2 or 3 Wire Output? gjinc Onan Generators 6 06-23-2016 10:08:35 AM
Onan OTOCA 5566643 spec A amp transfer switch Questions gjinc Onan Generators 8 03-06-2016 10:04:24 PM
So California Power Outage lijobi Onan Generators 29 09-11-2011 06:02:16 PM
I'm ready for a power outage! Gunny Onan Generators 26 12-15-2010 09:01:56 AM


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:43:09 PM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2016 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277