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Generator Controllers - Gencon II Pro


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  #1  
Old 07-22-2017, 12:56:10 PM
JohnnyC JohnnyC is offline
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Default Generator Controllers - Gencon II Pro

Anyone out here that has any controllers of any brand / model hooked into the Onans?

As some here already know, I was given a bunch of neat things including 8 Gencon II Pro controllers along with optional modules. I haven't the foggiest clue how these things interface with the generators other than the basics, but I am having a great time doing things and pressing buttons not know what the hell I'm doing. Getting information is very difficult since these controllers are not something most of us see especially for or small Onans.

Today, I hooked up one of the controllers on the bench by feeding it one leg from the utility and 12 VDC from a car battery. The thing lite up and seems to have endless menus. I attached 4 pictures below, but after 20 minutes of screwing around, I barely scratch the surface of knowing its full potential. Once I get to understand these things and know how to wire it up, I'll hook it to my JB.

My Question: Anyone here have any experience with controllers? Gencon II Pro experience? It is worth the time to learn how to operate controllers and incorporate them for use with our Onans? Where can I find manuals for the Gencon II system? Any other advice would be great!

OK, going to get a 6 pack then returning to have a blast by playing with the controller and doing endless Googles to find any information from the deep dark corners of the internet, if any information exists.

JohnnyC
New Jersey
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Old 07-22-2017, 01:05:55 PM
pegasuspinto pegasuspinto is offline
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Default Re: Generator Controllers - Gencon II Pro

Not that I am the sole expert, but I've never seen one in 10 years of working on standby gensets, not even heard it mentioned. Developed in Israel. The fact you got a whole bunch of them makes me think someone ripped them off to replace them with a controller that's more US known. Website looks poorly developed but maybe you can dig around and find some useful info.

http://www.wexler.co.il/
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Old 07-22-2017, 01:19:38 PM
JohnnyC JohnnyC is offline
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Default Re: Generator Controllers - Gencon II Pro

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Originally Posted by pegasuspinto View Post
Not that I am the sole expert, but I've never seen one in 10 years of working on standby gensets, not even heard it mentioned. Developed in Israel. The fact you got a whole bunch of them makes me think someone ripped them off to replace them with a controller that's more US known. Website looks poorly developed but maybe you can dig around and find some useful info.

http://www.wexler.co.il/
Thanks, I checked out their website earlier on. I can get only high level information, but not detailed information. Any detailed information out there requires $$$ to access it.

These controllers and other things came from a major generator company that my nephew worked for in the past. He commonly worked on BIG Mitsubishi 2.5 megawatt generators in a major city out my way. The company changed locations recently and there was lots of things left in their old building for the garbage thus he was given permission to grab all that was left for the vultures. I will pick his brain once I know what the hell I'm talking about, but I seldom see him since he is busy and lives in a different state.

Maybe I am going over my head by looking into the possibilities of hooking a professional controller to a small JB, but I am having tons of fun learning and playing. I know there is no way I will come close to using the full potential of these controllers, but using the basic functions is still a great learning experience. I would like to interface the controller with my PC (I have the optional things for it) so I can graph and track all information as if I'm in control in a command center, but that is really pushing it.

Anyway, thanks for the information. Any and all info is appreciated! Have a great day.

JohnnyC
New Jersey
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Old 07-22-2017, 03:34:32 PM
Wayne 440 Wayne 440 is online now
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Default Re: Generator Controllers - Gencon II Pro

All I know is that I'm still somewhat envious...
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Old 07-22-2017, 03:53:37 PM
Birken Vogt Birken Vogt is offline
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Default Re: Generator Controllers - Gencon II Pro

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyC View Post
Thanks, I checked out their website earlier on. I can get only high level information, but not detailed information. Any detailed information out there requires $$$ to access it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pegasuspinto View Post
Not that I am the sole expert, but I've never seen one in 10 years of working on standby gensets, not even heard it mentioned. Developed in Israel. The fact you got a whole bunch of them makes me think someone ripped them off to replace them with a controller that's more US known. Website looks poorly developed but maybe you can dig around and find some useful info.
I agree, these things are not cheap and the fact that somebody left a bunch of them behind does not speak well for their value.

There are quite a few well supported companies where you don't have to spend much or any money to get the info, why would anybody go for something obscure like this? Unless it was to make it more difficult for the customer to work on their own stuff.
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Old 07-22-2017, 04:10:02 PM
JohnnyC JohnnyC is offline
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Default Re: Generator Controllers - Gencon II Pro

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Originally Posted by Birken Vogt View Post
I agree, these things are not cheap and the fact that somebody left a bunch of them behind does not speak well for their value.

There are quite a few well supported companies where you don't have to spend much or any money to get the info, why would anybody go for something obscure like this? Unless it was to make it more difficult for the customer to work on their own stuff.
I think it is because the controller manufacturing company only wants professionals that have a true need to have access to the information, not shade-tree generator folks that have no real reason for the information such as myself.

Anyway, I did make some progress. I found a 43 page online document which I believe is similar to an operators document. I had to screen print EACH page since it did not allow me to print the document as a whole. It has plenty of information to keep me busy for a while.

As for the Gencon unit, I need to crack a password to gain access to certain parameters. It should not be too hard since it is only a 4 digit numeric password, but will be time consuming to go through 0000 to 9999. I don't know the default password, but I believe it would have been changed.

JohnnyC
New Jersey
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Old 07-22-2017, 04:10:05 PM
slip knot slip knot is offline
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Default Re: Generator Controllers - Gencon II Pro

are they generator controllers or transfer switch controllers?
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Old 07-22-2017, 04:35:58 PM
JohnnyC JohnnyC is offline
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Default Re: Generator Controllers - Gencon II Pro

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are they generator controllers or transfer switch controllers?
I believe they are generator controllers. This is new territory for me. These things interface with the generator and will issue alters, take measurements of the engine, generator and bus. It also has a SYNCscope. Has test and run functions with and without load, sleep, emergency start and stop, monitor all kinds of things including A/C Vacuum whatever the hell that is and a whole bunch more. I have no clue what much of this stuff is and I just begun reading the manual that I mentioned in my last post while screwing around with the controller in my house hooked up to a car battery and one leg to 120 vac utility. I guess I am in "sponge" mode soaking up what I can learn and determine what I can benefit from its capabilities and my Onan JB. This is fun stuff!!!!

Update: I believe one controller can be hooked up to 8 generators and has some kind of sequencing too, but I am not 100% positive. Actually, I am not positive about anything, yet.

Update #2 - The manual states that the Gencon II Pro is a complete control system for measurement, monitoring and control of synchronous and asynchronous (induction) generators. Its applications include 1) Automatic mains failure standby (emergency), Paralleling with the mains, and 3) Paralleling multiple generator-sets. ----- Okay that is what this thing does at a high level explanation.

JohnnyC
New Jersey
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Old 07-22-2017, 06:33:11 PM
pegasuspinto pegasuspinto is offline
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Default Re: Generator Controllers - Gencon II Pro

Likely these controllers can control both an ATS and a gen, It's fairly common.

Most of the aftermarket controller companies make it EASY to work on their stuff. Nice to find a manual online at 2 AM when you're desperate. It never speaks well of a company that locks it's info up. The fact someone has a multi 100 thou or million dollar gen system is enough price of admission to have need for a silly manual.

Password, try 0000, 1111, and 1234 first. It almost certainly has NOT been changed, only have ran into a scant few controllers that got a password change.
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Old 07-22-2017, 07:52:59 PM
Power Power is offline
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Default Re: Generator Controllers - Gencon II Pro

That is something.
With proper inputs, it can give you all the information you could possibly want. Wonder what the control side can do. May be capable of monitoring and controlling a power plant- bringing units online or dropping them off as load requires.
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Old 07-23-2017, 07:27:51 AM
Gunny Gunny is offline
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Default Re: Generator Controllers - Gencon II Pro

I've worked with those before, been a lot of years though.

A fairly good controller with a whole lot of features and hard to set up/program. They work well once set up.

Used to control generators that are intended to run in parallel with either the grid or each other. That means they have the ability to control the geneset's governor and voltage regulator to share load. Typically in a paralleling system you have a number of devices or modules that perform functions like synchronizing, load sharing, generator protection, breaker control. This controller has most of those functions built in. Pretty sure that controller can also be remotely accessed and controlled either through the inter net or a local net.

Yes, you could use it to control one of your Onans but you'd need to disable 95% of the functions. Sort of like using a 747 to fly to the next town for a coffee. I'd say you'd also want to mount it off of the genset to protect it from vibration. You could set one of these up to monitor utility power, should it get out of where you have it set, it would start the genset, open the "mains", close the emergency side breaker and turn your lights back on. When "mains" come back to acceptable levels, it would parallel to utility, close the utility breaker, unload the genset, open the emergency breaker, cool down the engine and shut it down. That's how I set these up when I worked on them.

When working with controllers designed and built in other countries, find that they sometimes word things differently from what you and I are used to seeing. Here the utility is called utility, in England its "The Mains". Add another different language and there could be some serious differences. Careful with that and think things through.

Might have some manuals on them around here, I'll take a look later today. Doubt I'll ever do anything with them again. If I find them, I'll send them up.

Very similar in operation to Woodward EGCP3. Deep Sea makes one too. Barber Coleman, when they were in business, had one too but they weren't very good.
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Old 07-23-2017, 08:00:04 AM
Wayne 440 Wayne 440 is online now
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Default Re: Generator Controllers - Gencon II Pro

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...using a 747 to fly to the next town for a coffee...
Hmmm. I'm having completely inappropriate thoughts of having a pair of RDJC sets with those controllers, instead of one 30kW set. I know that there are many reasons not to do that, but still...
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Old 07-23-2017, 08:53:47 AM
JohnnyC JohnnyC is offline
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Default Re: Generator Controllers - Gencon II Pro

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Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
I've worked with those before, been a lot of years though.

A fairly good controller with a whole lot of features and hard to set up/program. They work well once set up.

Used to control generators that are intended to run in parallel with either the grid or each other. That means they have the ability to control the geneset's governor and voltage regulator to share load. Typically in a paralleling system you have a number of devices or modules that perform functions like synchronizing, load sharing, generator protection, breaker control. This controller has most of those functions built in. Pretty sure that controller can also be remotely accessed and controlled either through the inter net or a local net.

Yes, you could use it to control one of your Onans but you'd need to disable 95% of the functions. Sort of like using a 747 to fly to the next town for a coffee. I'd say you'd also want to mount it off of the genset to protect it from vibration. You could set one of these up to monitor utility power, should it get out of where you have it set, it would start the genset, open the "mains", close the emergency side breaker and turn your lights back on. When "mains" come back to acceptable levels, it would parallel to utility, close the utility breaker, unload the genset, open the emergency breaker, cool down the engine and shut it down. That's how I set these up when I worked on them.

When working with controllers designed and built in other countries, find that they sometimes word things differently from what you and I are used to seeing. Here the utility is called utility, in England its "The Mains". Add another different language and there could be some serious differences. Careful with that and think things through.

Might have some manuals on them around here, I'll take a look later today. Doubt I'll ever do anything with them again. If I find them, I'll send them up.

Very similar in operation to Woodward EGCP3. Deep Sea makes one too. Barber Coleman, when they were in business, had one too but they weren't very good.
Thanks Gunny for the information on the controller. I am also learning that in Europe their monitoring and control methodology would be to let the controller do it all while in the USA a separate switch would be used for power transfer. That is what I read and that information most likely is old and has changed since the 1990's / early 2000's.

I do not plan to run more than 1 set at a time, so all functionality of paralleling would be disabled or simply not used. I am not sure if I'm able to tap into the JB's AVR using the Gencon II Pro, but I would need to see detailed schematics.

For now, my main intent is to fully exercise the monitoring and reporting of critical engine and generator performance. Additionally, I want to pump the data from the Gencon II Pro to my PC where I believe Wexler has a comprehensive software package to track, report and plot the data into graphs and whatever. I have NO information on how this is done. There is a RS232 port on the controller, but that is used for the IOB02 module which contains onboard relays. My PCs do not have RS232 ports.


If you have any more information or can dig up your manuals, I will be happy to pay for them. I have nothing to lose since I got everything for free and although exploring the possibilities of this controller and interfacing it to an Onan is out of my league, it is fun and challenging.

Thanks,

JohnnyC
New Jersey
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Old 07-23-2017, 12:05:21 PM
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Default Re: Generator Controllers - Gencon II Pro

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Originally Posted by Gunny View Post

Yes, you could use it to control one of your Onans but you'd need to disable 95% of the functions. Sort of like using a 747 to fly to the next town for a coffee. .
I like your analogy. Those meters and controls are way beyond anything I would think of putting on a 5 or 10 KW generator.
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Old 07-23-2017, 12:13:52 PM
pegasuspinto pegasuspinto is offline
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Default Re: Generator Controllers - Gencon II Pro

You can buy a RS-232 dongle for your computer cheap. Thats what we all have to use now, because only the most industrial laptops come with a RS-232.

I would suspect this system communicates RS-485, because it can be networked and the cable lengths allowed are pretty generous. Typically you have a RS-485 to either RS-232 or Ethernet converter somewhere and your computer accesses the system from there.

Unless this has a lot of legacy support built in I doubt it would interface with a JB regulator. Generally now they expect a digital regulator and governor. There are modules out there that convert digital out to a motor drive to turn a control.....for those who have to bridge state of the art to dinosaurs
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Old 07-23-2017, 03:13:29 PM
Gunny Gunny is offline
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Default Re: Generator Controllers - Gencon II Pro

Johnny

Went through a pile on manuals and so far, no joy but still looking.

Take a look here and it'll give you a pretty good idea of what you have and what it can do.

http://www.woodward.com/egcp3.aspx

Yes, it can control your VR but don't know why you'd want to, usually only done when paralleling. Short story...... When a large generator is called upon to parallel to another source, before it will close the breaker it will match the voltage to within whatever you have it set for, usually 5% or so. Once the breaker to the other source is closed, there needs to be a connection to a set of contacts in that breaker telling it what position it's in (open or closed). Once the controller sees the breaker is closed, the voltage regulator now becomes, more or less, a VAR/Power Factor controller. It also needs at least 1 PT (Usually on phase B) also connected to the controller so it knows if its sending out power or soaking up power.
With that controller you could parallel about any size genset with any other size genset or utility as long as the voltage and frequency were the same. You could parallel your JB to the grid but you would need an electronic governor and more sophisticated voltage regulator. Oh, and some utility grade protective relays too. Those relays would probably price it right out of consideration.

Try to get in the menus and change some settings. If it asks you for a pass word, you might be out of luck. Then might consider selling them on ebay. If someone wants one of them bad enough, you very well might be able to fund your next 5 or 10 projects.
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Old 07-23-2017, 03:55:40 PM
len k len k is offline
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Default Re: Generator Controllers - Gencon II Pro

With needing to shell out $$$$$ for access sounds like it's a proprietary system that you will never have full access to on your own. Not good if it crashes in the middle of a cold night. Manufacturer likely sees user as a cash cow to be milked.

Might be easier to get a generic PLC and design your own controls.

From what has been said it might be intended to put one on every BIG gen. And use one as the master to control the other slaves. To run them in parelle as needed to power the utility grid.
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Old 07-23-2017, 08:36:32 PM
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Default Re: Generator Controllers - Gencon II Pro

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With needing to shell out $$$$$ for access sounds like it's a proprietary system that you will never have full access to on your own. Not good if it crashes in the middle of a cold night. Manufacturer likely sees user as a cash cow to be milked.

Might be easier to get a generic PLC and design your own controls.

From what has been said it might be intended to put one on every BIG gen. And use one as the master to control the other slaves. To run them in parelle as needed to power the utility grid.
If password protected and you have it, not too bad to make it work, if you don't, pretty much a fancy paper weight. Those things are about as reliable as an anvil, set it up and rarely do you have an issue, its all in the set up.

Yes, easier to just get a Deep Sea or an Easy Gen but not much challenge there.

Yes, designed to control al large genset or a yard full of them. If I remember right, can use one of these to control 7 or 8 slaves.
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Old 07-24-2017, 11:19:49 PM
JohnnyC JohnnyC is offline
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Default Re: Generator Controllers - Gencon II Pro

Update: - I've read all the responses and they all contain great information. I will comment on them tomorrow since it is late here in New Jersey.

For the past several days I've been very busy trying to crack the Gencon II Pro password to have full access to the setup menus. The password is a 4 digit numeric code (between 0000-9999 inclusive). I started at 0000 and worked my way to 0520 with no luck. I texted my nephew asking if he knew the password which I hated to do since he works long hours with a 2 hour commute. He replied in 2 minutes. The Gencon II Pro password is 5344. It worked!! I'm not sure if that is a default password for all Gencons or what. He did not ask me anything specific about the controller I was trying to crack and I got 8 of them.

It is now 11 pm and no way can I sleep now that I got full access . I can set all kinds of things like overspeed, battery undervolts, gen undervolts and overvolts, Frequency over and under, G 2xOvAmp W and S (whatever that is), G Reverse kW, Over %THD, SyncTimeout, Dwell time, Kw Surge, Test delay, Mains status, Standby On and Off, Engine Preglow (I guess that's for diesels), Engine crank, Crankfail Rest, Idle Run Time, V/OP/HZ N/BILT (what????), Set Stabil Min, Coolin Down, Stopping max, Alarm On Max, LubPump On Off, Load Break, Contactor Delay, all kinds of kVAr quotas, Cooling temp alarm, H/L Oil level Shut, Vacuum Alarm, HCoolTmpSht, Oil Pressure, Fuel Pressure L and R, etc..... There are 53 possible settings from the one menu screen called Delays that I am looking at and I don't have the foggiest clue what most of these settings are for. There are other screens for setpoints, Options, Basics, Factory, In 1....16. Within each of these menus, there are more. ..... CRAP!! I just tried accessing the FACTORY menu and it asks for a 6 digit password. I'll text my nephew this week, but seems like I now have access to everything else. Ok, lots of learning to do with little information on hand.

Update--- It is really neat to see all the professionally set parameters of the generator(s) that this thing was controlling. I may be wrong, but the controller was on a 1 megawatt generator. Well, I hope it does not mind being hooked up to an Onan 7.5kw if it is possible

JohnnyC
New Jersey

Last edited by JohnnyC; 07-24-2017 at 11:37:12 PM.
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Old 07-25-2017, 07:58:53 AM
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Default Re: Generator Controllers - Gencon II Pro

Man that thing is chock full of nuts! You'll be playing with it for months.
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