Antique Engines and Old Iron

[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Groups] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Books] - [Sponsors] -

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® Vintage Electrical Equipment > Solar and Wind Power for Home, Farm & Industry
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Solar and Wind Power for Home, Farm & Industry Windmills, solar panels and inverters for standby power.

Solar and Wind Power for Home, Farm & Industry

Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent!


this thread has 28 replies and has been viewed 3918 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-10-2016, 05:57:12 PM
len k len k is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Manchester, New Hampshire
Posts: 19,199
Thanks: 664
Thanked 7,368 Times in 5,237 Posts
Default Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent!

Finally, can let solar and wind power supply more power and not crash the grid.

http://www.designnews.com/author.asp...&doc_id=279457
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to len k For This Post:
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 02-10-2016, 06:03:43 PM
Scotty 2 Scotty 2 is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Warwick, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 2,883
Thanks: 1,938
Thanked 2,246 Times in 1,177 Posts
Default Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent !

Hello all.
I have a question. What happens to all the heavy metals in the batteries when the batteries reach the end of their life?
And what about the byproducts that occur in the manufacturing of these batteries?

Cheers Scott
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-10-2016, 06:09:27 PM
len k len k is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Manchester, New Hampshire
Posts: 19,199
Thanks: 664
Thanked 7,368 Times in 5,237 Posts
Default Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent !

Don't think lithium ion has heavy metals.

Ahh....
"Since Li-ion batteries contain less toxic metals than other types of batteries which may contain lead or cadmium[54] they are generally categorized as non-hazardous waste. Li-ion battery elements including iron, copper, nickel and cobalt are considered safe for incinerators and landfills"
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-10-2016, 06:31:11 PM
Scotty 2 Scotty 2 is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Warwick, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 2,883
Thanks: 1,938
Thanked 2,246 Times in 1,177 Posts
Default Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent !

Hello Len,
Thank for that information. What is the reference for it?
The word 'generally' is a bit of a double edged sword and what about the byproducts during manufacture? Is the same statement true for the battery banks they're talking about in the stories you posted a link to?

There is plenty of literature out there warning of the 'whole of life' use of Lithium Ion technology at this time (that is the important bit.....at this time)
I seem to remember lots of environmental groups sprooking the benefits of the compact fluorescent bulb to the environment until it was found out about the mercury in them.

Cheers Scott
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-10-2016, 07:01:46 PM
len k len k is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Manchester, New Hampshire
Posts: 19,199
Thanks: 664
Thanked 7,368 Times in 5,237 Posts
Default Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent !

I just did a quick googal to see what the cathode was.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

environmental is section 12
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-10-2016, 07:15:31 PM
Mikey NY Mikey NY is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central Valley, New York
Posts: 848
Thanks: 79
Thanked 538 Times in 259 Posts
Default Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent !

Very interesting article len. Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-10-2016, 07:31:28 PM
JSWithers JSWithers is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Fargo, North Dakota
Posts: 1,549
Thanks: 5,146
Thanked 2,234 Times in 905 Posts
Default Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent !

Batteries are hazardous waste but have an EPA exception to be handled as Universal waste along with fluorescent bulbs and some other things. This is to encourage proper recycling without having to go through all the hassle and paperwork to get an EPA ID number and the hazardous waste manifest for documentation, transportation, etc. This allows the waste to be handled seperately so it won't count against a businesses generator status. And it allows you to transport these things to the local household hazardous waste facility without hassle. Otherwise you would be required to have a hazardous waste transporters license. And that's complicated.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-10-2016, 08:46:11 PM
Ken Karrow Ken Karrow is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: West Central Missouri
Posts: 1,066
Thanks: 735
Thanked 535 Times in 362 Posts
Default Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent !

Everyone overlooks a simple idea. Build two reservoirs, one higher than the other. When solar or wind output is high pump water into the upper one, when low release through a hydro plant. Therefor storage and the only natural resources used is fuel for the Cats and some pipe, motors and pump and generating system, surely less than building the batteries. Though with the current administration you can NOT count hydro as renewable energy but you should get an exception for water you have already pumped. It is also possible that we will get enlightened administrators that will realize that hydro is renewable as long as it rains or snows.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Ken Karrow For This Post:
  #9  
Old 02-10-2016, 09:43:57 PM
len k len k is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Manchester, New Hampshire
Posts: 19,199
Thanks: 664
Thanked 7,368 Times in 5,237 Posts
Default Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent !

There's a place in western Mass that does that, pipes connect 2 naturally occurring lakes.

If you were to make a lake it would take a huge footprint of land to store enough water and a good size hill to do that.
Land= $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Doesn't work where there are no hills, like in the wheat fields of Wisconsin .
Or where there is a shortage of water like out west , Texas.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-11-2016, 02:57:44 AM
Scotty 2 Scotty 2 is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Warwick, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 2,883
Thanks: 1,938
Thanked 2,246 Times in 1,177 Posts
Default Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Karrow View Post
Everyone overlooks a simple idea. Build two reservoirs, one higher than the other. When solar or wind output is high pump water into the upper one, when low release through a hydro plant. etc etc etc
Hello Ken,
You mean like the Snowy Mountain Scheme here in Australia?

Cheers Scott
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-11-2016, 09:17:27 PM
Ken Karrow Ken Karrow is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: West Central Missouri
Posts: 1,066
Thanks: 735
Thanked 535 Times in 362 Posts
Default Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent !

The only water use is evaporation and some places that wind farms are located, eastern CO, Texas panhandle, western KS, parts of NE and the Dakotas and WY, land is relatively cheap. It is unsuitable for crops and as grazing land requires 20 - 40 acres to support 1 cow and her calf till it is weaned for one year. Hence at 20 acres the income before expenses per acre even with high cattle prices $25 per year. $500 calf divided by 20 acres. This does not allow depreciation on cow, taxes, fencing, labor, horses and maintainence, windmills and repairs, depreciation on the bull, etc.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-11-2016, 10:11:46 PM
ronm ronm is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Fruita, Colorado USA
Posts: 4,474
Thanks: 2,904
Thanked 3,040 Times in 1,624 Posts
Default Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent!

There's a lot of "coulds", "maybes", "possibillities", & "don't know for sures" in that very optimistic & speculative article...
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ronm For This Post:
  #13  
Old 02-11-2016, 10:19:51 PM
len k len k is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Manchester, New Hampshire
Posts: 19,199
Thanks: 664
Thanked 7,368 Times in 5,237 Posts
Default Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent!

Artical said 53 foot trailer sized bat pack had ~4 megawatt-hr capacity. That's only ~ 1 megawatt for only 4 hours. Drop in the bucket, but it's a start. One modern nuke plant is at least 1000 megawatts 24/7.

Last edited by len k; 02-11-2016 at 11:01:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-11-2016, 10:43:35 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: San Marcos, Texas / McGill, Nevada
Posts: 4,852
Thanks: 5,764
Thanked 4,181 Times in 2,061 Posts
Default Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent!

Quote:
Originally Posted by len k View Post
Artical said 53 foot trailer sized bat pack had ~4 megawatt-hr capacity. That's only ~ 1 megawatt for only 4 hours. Drop in the bucket, but it's a start. One modern nuke plant is 1000 megawatts 24/7.
At that size I'm pretty sure they will be recycled
__________________
Those who can see the invisible, can do the impossible
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-12-2016, 05:28:35 PM
BobRR BobRR is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Ypsilanti, Michigan, USA
Posts: 3,248
Thanks: 8,220
Thanked 1,335 Times in 906 Posts
Default Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent!

GE has new multi fuel generators that make up to 9MW. They are super efficient and are made to work with renewable generation. So if the battery back up cant handle the load these Gen. can be brought on line as needed in just a couple of Min. Bob
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-12-2016, 07:12:41 PM
len k len k is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Manchester, New Hampshire
Posts: 19,199
Thanks: 664
Thanked 7,368 Times in 5,237 Posts
Default Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent!

Problem with solar is that's likely too long to prevent a brown/black out if a cloud comes by. The backup gens would have to sit there hot and spinning ready to output power in a fraction of a second. So CO2 footprint is not as good as everyone hopes for, since you've got to keep the backup gens ready to go on line instantly.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-12-2016, 07:16:54 PM
Harry's Avatar
Harry Harry is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Sarasota, Florida USA
Posts: 6,897
Thanks: 586
Thanked 14,286 Times in 2,499 Posts
Default Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent!

https://www.google.com/#q=blenheim+gilboa
__________________
(See our Terms of Service)
-- Harry Engines Ignitions Videos Photos
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-12-2016, 07:47:42 PM
BobRR BobRR is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Ypsilanti, Michigan, USA
Posts: 3,248
Thanks: 8,220
Thanked 1,335 Times in 906 Posts
Default Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent!

Quote:
Originally Posted by len k View Post
Problem with solar is that's likely too long to prevent a brown/black out if a cloud comes by. The backup gens would have to sit there hot and spinning ready to output power in a fraction of a second. So CO2 footprint is not as good as everyone hopes for, since you've got to keep the backup gens ready to go on line instantly.
len The Generators don't do anything until they are needed. A emergency generator for a hospital can be up and running in a couple of seconds. They keep the coolant and oil in these engines at temp and circulating but nothing else is running. Bob
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-13-2016, 03:01:00 PM
len k len k is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Manchester, New Hampshire
Posts: 19,199
Thanks: 664
Thanked 7,368 Times in 5,237 Posts
Default Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent!

I was thinking of steam tubine gens.

Even a couple seconds is too long for utility power, would you tolerate voltage brownouts every time a cloud came by for wind fluctuated.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-13-2016, 04:49:35 PM
Scotty 2 Scotty 2 is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Warwick, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 2,883
Thanks: 1,938
Thanked 2,246 Times in 1,177 Posts
Default Re: Finally, solar and wind power are not intermittent!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRR View Post
len The Generators don't do anything until they are needed. A emergency generator for a hospital can be up and running in a couple of seconds. They keep the coolant and oil in these engines at temp and circulating but nothing else is running. Bob
Two totally different generators. To compare a backup generator is a hospital to a generator supplying power to parts of your country is like comparing the time it takes to start and run an engine in a moped/lawn mower to an engine in an ocean liner.
Output of one generator is measured in kW and the other is in MW. I'd love to read about a generator, who's output is measured in MW, that can be brought on line (including starting) in seconds or even minutes.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump

Similar Threads Chosen at Random
Thread Thread Starter F o r u m Replies Last Post
solar vs wind grid tie inverter KeithW Solar and Wind Power for Home, Farm & Industry 9 07-29-2014 08:45:05 PM
Solar and Wind Power keyturbocars Solar and Wind Power for Home, Farm & Industry 2 11-25-2012 02:29:42 AM
Scrap wind turbines, solar panels and nukes sftyvlv Fuels and Alternative Fuels 50 02-16-2012 10:51:45 AM


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:46:58 AM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2019 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277