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School me about CCK bottom ends


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  #1  
Old 04-09-2017, 09:27:42 PM
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Default School me about CCK bottom ends

I just bought a welder project a Miller 250 trailblazer with an Onan performer 20 xsl engine. the guy took a head off 7 or 8 yrs ago. He remembered that it was running like crap and had low compression. Ill say it is low , the pistons don't move when cranking but the valves open and close!!! The one piston form the cylinder that I can see is about half way down the cylinder. Im not even sure how that is possible, the flywheel is at the front and the cooling fan is at the back and both turn when the starter is engaged and the valves open and close. It doesn't sound like bad mechanical noises when it is cranking , spins over fairly quick but the pistons don't move. So how does this work??. I have no experience with CCK style bottom end work. I did also get a Kohler engine from another Miller welder with it which might make it whole again but I am also puzzled about how the engine attaches to the generator on that one. But first things first. Cheers Dan
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Old 04-09-2017, 09:32:04 PM
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Default Re: School me about CCK bottom ends

Busted crankshaft?
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Old 04-09-2017, 09:33:44 PM
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Default Re: School me about CCK bottom ends

The connecting rod is broke? Your gonna have to open it up and see what's up
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Old 04-09-2017, 09:43:58 PM
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Default Re: School me about CCK bottom ends

Just looking at a CCK motor it looks like the flywheel is up front, as in not mated to the gen head so the start ring gear is there. From there it looks like timing gears and then the actual crank journals for the connecting rods. So if the crank is busted past that first main bearing beyond the timing gears than it might explain why you have valve train action but not any piston movement. Just a guess looking at how its all laid out. Or both con rods went kerplewy. Which means it got oil starved.
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Old 04-09-2017, 09:47:27 PM
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Default Re: School me about CCK bottom ends

Broken rod will be the problem. I am guessing right side looking from the front
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Old 04-09-2017, 10:14:33 PM
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Default Re: School me about CCK bottom ends

Either way, it sounds like it would be cheaper to find a RV set or whatever to donate an engine to the welder. That engine you have sounds like its expensively broken.
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Old 04-09-2017, 10:35:55 PM
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Default Re: School me about CCK bottom ends

Both pistons don't move, but yet the crank turns? I never heard of 2 out of 2 connecting rods failing, but obviously something is majorly and seriously wrong. Drain oil and look closely for small metal fragments. If you have a bore scope, look at the bottom of the pan after draining the oil. Look for metal chunks.

If the rod(s) are broken, you may also have scored cylinder wall(s) too. I bet if you tear down the motor, it will look as if a grenade went off inside the motor. Hey, did you notice any fine hairline cracks in the block?

JohnnyC
New Jersey
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Old 04-09-2017, 11:03:20 PM
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Default Re: School me about CCK bottom ends

Quote:
Originally Posted by TLB01 View Post
Busted crankshaft?
second the busted crank , it has to come apart for any of the things that could be wrong with it
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Old 04-09-2017, 11:08:33 PM
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Default Re: School me about CCK bottom ends

One other theory and this one is a bit nicer:

The keys are sheared. The flywheel might be dragging on the crank timing gear enough to move the valve train. If the keys are sheared it might explain why it ran like butt. It jumped time. Of course, they don't just spontaneously break. Its not a lawnmower hitting a tree root.
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Old 04-09-2017, 11:14:34 PM
Wayne 440 Wayne 440 is offline
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Default Re: School me about CCK bottom ends

It has a broken rod. I would not assume that both pistons are not moving based on looking at only one.
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Old 04-09-2017, 11:15:41 PM
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Default Re: School me about CCK bottom ends

Just pulled the other head and confirmed that piston is not moving either, Hard as it is to believe both rods appear to have let go. As far as I can see the crankshaft can't be broken as the back turns , the front turns so the middle has to be turning, hence it is in one piece!! Two broken rods who da thunk it. Will get on to the rocket surgery in the next couple of days. Cheers Dan
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Old 04-09-2017, 11:21:11 PM
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Default Re: School me about CCK bottom ends

That was fast. Will be interesting to see if we can tell how that happened.
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Old 04-09-2017, 11:25:44 PM
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Default Re: School me about CCK bottom ends

Uncontrolled overspeed?
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Old 04-09-2017, 11:28:34 PM
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Default Re: School me about CCK bottom ends

both pistons not moving? that's really odd. With the one not moving and half way down the bore makes me think the rod is broken somewhere close to the big end. with both piston not moving I have to wonder, does it have rods in it all?
Enquiring minds want to know. pics of the inside please.
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Old 04-09-2017, 11:32:18 PM
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Default Re: School me about CCK bottom ends

Rods are aluminum?
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Old 04-09-2017, 11:44:07 PM
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Default Re: School me about CCK bottom ends

Pics as soon as I get her apart. I cant get over the fact that it does not make bad noises. I should put an oil pressure guage where the sender is and see if it still got oil pressure. When I pushed the one piston down with my finger it took no pressure to do that. When I cranked it that piston was once again pushed about half way back up the cyl and stayed there. I am wondering if a RV CCK could be a donor engine , is there enough crossover for it to work easily. If so could it be a 4Kw as they seem easier to find. This one has a separate starter so would that be a problem to fit. I will have to read Johnny Cs thread to refresh my memory. Cheers Dan
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Old 04-09-2017, 11:57:39 PM
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Default Re: School me about CCK bottom ends

If it is a welder engine that turns up to 3600 rpm then it shouldn't have aluminum rods, it will have steel or cast iron rods. Dan, When you are turning the front part of the engine, does the welder generator shaft turn? I think I would suspect a broken crank. If the engine has steel rods then you can't use a generator engine unless it is the 10kw, 3600 rpm cck engine. The 1800 rpm engines use the aluminum rods with no insert bearings on the rods.
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Old 04-10-2017, 12:07:42 AM
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Default Re: School me about CCK bottom ends

Both ends turn when cranking the flywheel and the generator fan end. Good point about the CCKB engine. The mystery will be solved when I get it open. Cheers Dan
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Old 04-10-2017, 12:08:17 AM
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Default Re: School me about CCK bottom ends

This is for sale down in TacoTown:

https://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/grd/6050110776.html

Its an equipment engine so not governed at 1800. Might be similar vintage. Asking 2 bills USD.
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Old 04-10-2017, 12:14:21 AM
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Default Re: School me about CCK bottom ends

Don't assume Steel rods. I watched this video a while back before I pulled my 4CCK apart to re-ring it. It's a p220g out of a lawn mower which would be 3600rpm and has aluminum rods. https://youtu.be/JAqxaSdpuSo

What about the scenario of one rod beaking, then it being ran until the other rod broke. We all know these engine runwith just one cylinder, but lack of power. That would tie it to the report of it running like crap.
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