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Steam Stationary Engines, Traction Engines, Steam Boats

40 Gaar Scott Restoration


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  #51  
Old 01-28-2009, 02:26:07 PM
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Colin Colin is offline
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Default Re: 40 Gaar Scott Restoration

Would these gears be of similar steel to what Reeves used? when we were getting that 25 Reeves at Austin going, it needed the LH (diff) pinion built up. so we sent it to Larson welding and i beleive they just used a wire feed welder. it worked and looked good after. But after theres a certain amount of cast in them you can't use the buzz box. seen that happen on a 45 case that was trying to plow. when the teeth stripped out it made an ugly noise heard all across the grounds Case gears have to be replaced when worn out. theres different tensile strengths of brass/bronze. so i can see some being stronger. Like Lawrence said a good shop will know what works best. Most nickle repairs ive seen were either ugly or re-cracked. and most braze repairs we've seen or done worked fine and last forever.
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  #52  
Old 01-28-2009, 04:17:43 PM
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Default Re: 40 Gaar Scott Restoration

I have found nickle rod only good for small things mabey patching a block small bracket. I welded a very large piece of cast iron with a big mig welder using a steel wire with high silcone content worked better than anything else i have ever tried and held up very well. I have a tractor with a section of the gear ripped out and good old 7018 did the trick rather well Braze was invented before welders when they had nothing else and can also work good Good luck with the project project im going back to the gas tractor area
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  #53  
Old 01-28-2009, 06:15:54 PM
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AndyG AndyG is offline
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Default Re: 40 Gaar Scott Restoration

Jeff Smith probably has the best idea. Test the material to determine what you are working with. There are different materials for brazing. I used some silver last year that claimed to have a tensile of up to 80,000 psi. I also have some silicon bronze that I built of the clickers on my Madison Kipp lubricators with. Generally, higher silica content gives better wear characterisitcs. All that said, I don't believe that brazing build up will give the best results on gearing. Brazing materials are simply not hard enough for a wear surface like that found on the gear teeth of a plowing engine. The brazed area will likely wear out pretty fast.
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  #54  
Old 01-28-2009, 06:49:41 PM
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Default Re: 40 Gaar Scott Restoration

I watched my Dad rebuild all sorts of shafts, gears, slides of steel, cast iron, etc. with bronze, albeit before all of these fancy new alloys, welders, etc. all with good results.

Bronze is compatible with just about any ferrous material - no need to run off to the laboratory for an expensive analysis. It is a safe way to repair a casting - no danger of cracking the part, getting hard spots or building up stress concentrations. Easy to machine after it is built up. It will run in quickly against the other gear. And as far as wear let's get real. It will be plowing at most a few hours a year and putting around the barnyard / showground. And if it does wear out, rebuild it again

I think you are right on Lawrence.

Dick
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Old 01-28-2009, 07:43:19 PM
Rob Bryce Rob Bryce is offline
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Default Re: 40 Gaar Scott Restoration

We've had good success with nickel rod. There's also some rod (forget the name) designed specifically to repair...cast gears and that has worked extremely well - when the correct technique is used. I'm not a welder, don't pretend to be, but the guy who did it guaranteed his work and it's been fine.

Brazing certainly does work and we've had and seen good success there too.

My piston was built up using a wire feed, and with using a specific gas, the job seems successful. The rep for the company who supplied the wire oversaw the process so I expect it'll be okay.

Honestly, though, for the time, cost, appearance, and no-hassle factor (like dealing with good, even tooth contact, and not worrying about a broken tooth taking out another gear), my vote would be to just putty up the gears and get them re-cast by Kory or someone else.

--Rob
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  #56  
Old 01-28-2009, 09:53:48 PM
Mark Schneider Mark Schneider is offline
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Default Re: 40 Gaar Scott Restoration

Lawrence
If the gearing was my call I would chuck any gear that showed tooth bending and have a new one made to replace it. If a cast gear shows tooth distortion of that nature imminent failure is close behind. I'll be willing to bet that microscopic fracturing already exists on some of these gears. Making a welded repair to an unsound base may be OK for the parade route but I'd be leery of using them for plowing.

Think of the big picture...new boiler, refurbished engine, and an operating pressure at or above original. This engine will have the torque potential it did when it was new. To transmit this power through a brazed up gear train seems to be a step in wrong direction.

A chain is only as good as its weakest link. Make it a first class restoration from smokebox to plow hitch and you'll never be sorry you went the extra mile.

If Jerrod wants to pull the same plow as his Case 110 he's going to need first class gearing to do it.
Mark
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Old 01-29-2009, 12:06:03 AM
LundMachineWorks LundMachineWorks is offline
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Default Re: 40 Gaar Scott Restoration

I made the recommendation for the gear to be repaired using a brazing process, which as far as I know is the current plan. I have had this shop do work for me before it is very good work. They have also built the shelling lugs on my dads Minneapolis-Moline corn sheller. This was done in the late 1960's. The swirls are still the bronze after average year in the early 1970 of 150,000 bushels per year, and numerous rock in customers corn cribs. The material is work hardening and will stand the pressure.

As for nickel rod, it does have it's place, and there are people who are successful with it. This is not a good place for it! It is to brittle for such and application.

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  #58  
Old 01-29-2009, 01:04:56 AM
Colt Edin Colt Edin is offline
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Default Re: 40 Gaar Scott Restoration

Jeff,

Any pictures of progress on the boiler?

Colt
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  #59  
Old 01-29-2009, 02:43:54 AM
Eric M. Eric M. is offline
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Default Re: 40 Gaar Scott Restoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider View Post
Lawrence
If the gearing was my call I would chuck any gear that showed tooth bending and have a new one made to replace it. If a cast gear shows tooth distortion of that nature imminent failure is close behind. I'll be willing to bet that microscopic fracturing already exists on some of these gears. Making a welded repair to an unsound base may be OK for the parade route but I'd be leery of using them for plowing.

Think of the big picture...new boiler, refurbished engine, and an operating pressure at or above original. This engine will have the torque potential it did when it was new. To transmit this power through a brazed up gear train seems to be a step in wrong direction.

A chain is only as good as its weakest link. Make it a first class restoration from smokebox to plow hitch and you'll never be sorry you went the extra mile.

If Jerrod wants to pull the same plow as his Case 110 he's going to need first class gearing to do it.
Mark
I'd do a dye-penetrant check on the teeth. If they weren't cracked, then I'd braze away. If they were cracked badly, I'd turn off the teeth and shrink-fit and pin a new "ring gear" onto the outside. It may be just me, but I like to keep as much originality in the engines as possible. Money can't make new parts old.
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Old 01-29-2009, 03:09:03 AM
Mike McKnight Mike McKnight is offline
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Default Re: 40 Gaar Scott Restoration

Let me start off by saying if it were my call, I'd get new pinions made. I got new pinions cast & machined for my 60 HP Case, which is probably only going to be used as a sawmill engine when it's finished. The price difference for new pinions vs. building the old ones up would probably only be in the hundreds of dollars, not thousands.

With THAT out of the way, let me say.... it's not my call. Jerred is the one who did what most of us could only dream about, go out during the hard economic times and dip into his piggybank to buy, move, and restore this engine which is the Holy Grail of Gaar Scott machinery! It's staying here in the states, where it was built and earned a living for its first owner, and not going overseas to be bastardized into something totally unrecognizable from several tons of Richmond IN's finest iron and steel, and to have a washing machine hung on the front of it. For that, we of the steam preservation movement here owe him a tremendous debt of gratitude.

His piggybank & his toy, so let's step back, take a seat in our armchairs, and let the folks who are doing the restoration roll up their sleeves and get back to work, doing what we'd like to be doing!

Keep posting pics and info, Lawrence. It's been interesting & informative, and have enjoyed it all. Hope this discussion here hasn't got you discouraged from doing so...however, I doubt it, as I know you all too well, buddy, and know you're willing to argue with a fencepost when the mood strikes!

Mike

P.S.-Lawrence, if the gears are semi-steel, they probably should have "S.S." cast into them. My 22 HP gears are this way.

Last edited by Mike McKnight; 01-29-2009 at 05:49:43 AM. Reason: "S.S."
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