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Allis Chalmers 20-35 and 18-30 sheetmetal


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Old 10-15-2016, 10:24:21 PM
Jacob WI Jacob WI is offline
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Default Allis Chalmers 20-35 and 18-30 sheetmetal

Question for you. Is the sheet metal on an Allis Chalmers 18-30 and 20-35 longfender the same?

Specifically the hoods is what I am needing to know.

Fenders I am curious about too. I know some had stiffening ribs and some didn't (1925 and 26 had ribs I think?)

While we are at it, how about gas tanks? Again, there are a few variations of these I know, the kind with three compartments vs the single tank. Can anyone shed more light on this?

I'm looking to get parts for my tractors made, and need to know what is the same.

Thanks!
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Old 10-16-2016, 10:05:33 PM
JW in MO JW in MO is offline
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers 20-35 and 18-30 sheetmetal

The 20-35 fenders I've seen are the same on both sides with the ribs you mention. The 18-30 fenders don't have the ribs and I think the right side is wider than the left at the bottom rear. They both start out the same width at the top. The hood on the 20-35 cones down the sides about 4 to 5 inches or so. The 18-30 hood does not come down the sides and has a rolled edge. That is what I've discovered so far but others know more than I do and will probably straighten both of us out.
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Old 10-17-2016, 08:07:41 PM
Paul Roidt Paul Roidt is offline
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers 20-35 and 18-30 sheetmetal

Jacob,

The 1925 & 1926 Longfenders have the stiffening rib through the fender. I believe all tractors prior to that would not have had a rib.

Hoods, I believe the 1926 hoods had holes for the oil cups to the rocker arms, all hoods before then did not.

Fuel tanks depended on if the tractor was all fuel or not. All fuel tractors would have had compartments for starting gas, all fuel, and water for injection.

FYI I have a sales brochure that advertises an 18-30 with a stamped steel radiator and the original style kerosene manifold. As an example that the limited production of early tractors. Was not always standardized changes were made during production. I believe production in 1924 was just over 300 units.
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Old 10-17-2016, 10:29:32 PM
Jacob WI Jacob WI is offline
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers 20-35 and 18-30 sheetmetal

JW- You are partially right, but I believe you are thinking about shortfender 20-35's a bit. Longfender 20-35's are another can of worms. Much is different from the newer shortfender verson of the 20-35
But you are correct in that longfender fenders are different left to right. The left fender is wider at the bottom than the right side, and the left also has a little "kink" in the bottom edge near the platform.

Paul- I concur on what you posted. Can you confirm that the 18-30 and 20-35 LF hoods are the same though? (aside from the valve oilier holes). I guess a 1926 would also have a hole through the hood for the air washer pipe, as in 1926 the air washer was behind the engine, where it was located on the right side of the engine in 1925 and before and the air pipe did not need to go through the hood.
I guess some variations of the exhaust also did not go up through the hood, so no hole would be needed for that in some applications.

But I'm just worried about the base size and shape/construction of the hood. Bob MI is reproducing 18-30 sheet metal and I need to know if it will work on my 20-35 longfenders. He is unsure, and I do not have a longfender hood to compare.

I guess the only differences would be the radiators and firewall between a 18-30 and 20-35, as the base tractor would be the same? Anyone know if these differences affected the hood?

Thanks!
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Old 10-23-2016, 04:11:44 PM
Paul Roidt Paul Roidt is offline
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers 20-35 and 18-30 sheetmetal

Jacob,
My parts book only lists one hood. However it is a 1924 parts book.
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Old 01-18-2017, 11:15:13 PM
Jacob WI Jacob WI is offline
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers 20-35 and 18-30 sheetmetal

I am going to bump this back to the top hoping someone can shed any more light on this topic?

I'll add what I have found since the last post, while digging through my parts books. Maybe it will help fill in some missing pieces?

In my earliest 18-30 parts book #1307 copyright 1919-1920 lists:

E-555 Hood. One required. steel. 33 lbs. $14.50
E-556 Side Curtain. Two required. 7 lbs. $4.00 each.
E-557 Side Curtain Strips. Four required. Wood. 2 lbs. $1.80 each.
E-558 Side Curtain Clips. Four required. Steel. 1 oz. $.05 each.
E-559 Manifold Curtain Guard. One required. Steel. 3 lbs. $1.20.

So this would be the earliest hood available I would assume, as only the earliest 18-30's came with roll up side curtains from what I understand? Anyone know what year or serial number they were used on?


My next manual is an 18-30 AND 20-35 manual #1314-B

It lists the following:

E-555 Hood for motor. See E1119, E-1165 Use 8 No. 18x1/2" Rd. Hd. Machine Screws; 8 5/16" SAE Lock Washers. Sh. St. 33 lbs. $14.00

E-1119 Hood for Motor. Use: 8- No 8-18x1/2" Rd. Hd. Mach. Screws. 8-5/16" SAE Lock Washers. See E-555; E-1165 Sh. St. 33 lbs. $14.00

E-1165 Hood for Motor. Use: 14- 5/16" SAE Lock Washers 12- 5/16"x3/4" Tap Bolts 2- 5/16"x1" Tap Bolts 14- 5/16" S. F. Hex. Nuts. Tractors 6755 & up. (which would be the start of 1925) Sh. St. 33 lbs. $14.00

E-1320 Hood for Motor. Use: 2- 5/16"x1" Hex. Tap Bolts 12- 5/16"x3/4" Hex. Tap Bolts 14- 5/16" SAE Lock Washers 14- 5/16" S. F. Hex. Nuts Tractors No. 7370 and up. (which would be the start of 1926) Sh. St. 33 lbs. $14.00

E-1321 Hood for Motor. Used with Y.T.R. (hot spot) manifold only. Use 2- 5/16"x1" Hex. Tap. Bolts 12- 5/16"x3/4" Hex. Tap. Bolts 14-5/16" SAE Lock Washers 14- 5/16" S. F. Hex. Nuts Used on tractors above 7370. Sh. St. 33 lbs. $14.00

So that is what I can add to this discussion at this point. The different versions at the very least use different fasteners, so at least the mounting holes are different.

Thoughts?

Last edited by Jacob WI; 01-18-2017 at 11:32:00 PM. Reason: Posted before done
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Old 01-19-2017, 09:49:00 PM
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers 20-35 and 18-30 sheetmetal

I think the hoods were all basically the same except for the holes for filler caps, exhaust stacks, lubricators etc. which varied from year to year. The basic hood form appears the same and they all state the weight as the same-- 33 lbs.
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Old 01-20-2017, 01:36:44 PM
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers 20-35 and 18-30 sheetmetal

Some pictures may helpClick image for larger version

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This is a fender from an A/C 18-30 early, items to note side skirt and single outer edge rib.
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Old 01-20-2017, 01:50:15 PM
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers 20-35 and 18-30 sheetmetal

More pictures of a Late A/C 20-35. As you can see the side skirt are different as are the number if ribs, there are now 3, 1 is 1/2" round at edge as the other 2 are flat 1/8 tall and maybe 1 1/4" wide. Measurements on this fender are unknown as yet.

18-30 early hood is 86 1/2 long and 27 1/2" wide inside of wire roll, 3/8" wire rod. Same arch end to end. Measurement not known at this time on the 20-35.

The 20-35 took on some changes but I am not sure when the early and late changed.

Bob
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Old 01-20-2017, 02:02:46 PM
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers 20-35 and 18-30 sheetmetal

Hood on 20-35. I looked on www.steel-wheels.net and it looked like 1928 is where they changed hoods to the wider sides, as other noted, came down 4-5" more. I only have a pattern for the earlier style and the much later Greyhound 2 pc. hood.
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Old 01-20-2017, 05:55:48 PM
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers 20-35 and 18-30 sheetmetal

Bob, the wider hood sides came out in '27 on the first of the short fender models. #8070 and up.
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Old 01-20-2017, 06:25:30 PM
Jacob WI Jacob WI is offline
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers 20-35 and 18-30 sheetmetal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob in Mi. View Post
Hood on 20-35. I looked on www.steel-wheels.net and it looked like 1928 is where they changed hoods to the wider sides, as other noted, came down 4-5" more. I only have a pattern for the earlier style and the much later Greyhound 2 pc. hood.
No, 1927 is when they changed the 20-35's from longfenders to shortfenders. A 1927 has the shortfender sheet metal and hood with longer sides. The fenders on a '27 are different than '28 and after fenders, but still totally different than a longfenders ('26 and before).

You have to be careful when using "early" and "late" when referring to 20-35's.
For most discussions shortfender (1927 and after) and longfender (1926 and before) using early and late can get confusing because it depends on if you are compairing among ALL 20-35's or one bunch, IE the shortfenders or longfenders.
Then throw in the 18-30's and things really get tricky, as usually they are referred to as 18-30's, but some people lump them in with "longfenders" But the general concensus is that the term "longfender" should be only used when referring to 20-35's because they had the two types, where all 18-30's had long fenders on them.
And "longfender" is just a disussion term, it wasn't actually used by AC on adds,etc..

Clear as mud?

I got a video to add here in a bit that might help some... stay tuned...

Phil typed faster than I did

---------- Post added at 04:25:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:58:34 PM ----------

Just put together this video, I hope it helps?

https://youtu.be/YcHbD2jZKzI

One correction, I said the sheet metal is basically the same for '25 and '26. This is with the exception of holes in the hood. '26 had oilers through the hood where any other years did not. Air cleaner holes are also different.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, or ask for any more pics or measurements, I'm happy to help!

Last edited by Jacob WI; 01-20-2017 at 06:03:15 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 01-21-2017, 11:50:11 AM
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers 20-35 and 18-30 sheetmetal

Jacob Wi,

Nice video. I will get with my customer about measurements, I think his tractor is inside (warm). Hood is 86 1/2". When I referred to late and early I was speaking of Longfenderes only.

The one thing I did see that I am not liking and that is the joint between the side skirt and the top. That standing hem is difficult to make and expensive. That hem has to be stretched to form the radius of the fender. The alternative is delete that standing hem and make them like the earlier 18-30, that fender has no standing hem. What are your thoughts?
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Old 01-21-2017, 01:43:19 PM
Jacob WI Jacob WI is offline
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers 20-35 and 18-30 sheetmetal

You're more than welcome Bob!

That is what this hobby is all about, helping each other out

As far as the standing hem on the fender where the skirt meets the top, I guess that would be each owners decision. I personally would want it done correctly for originality's sake.

At this point in time I hope to fix my original fenders up and use them. My thoughts are if they have made it up to now all the way from 1926, the least I can do is tune them up a bit, and they should last another 90 years. That is part of the history of the machine in my eyes. I realize they will not be 100% perfect and dent free, but that adds a bit of character to the piece.

I realize this is not always possible, sometimes the sheet metal is too far gone to fix. In this case I personally think it is up to the owner to reproduce that original the same way it was made so future generations have an accurate representation of how it came from the factory.

But I am a bit of a stickler for details, and I realize that.

To me that is part of the challenge of these projects too, getting things done like they were in the 20's.

---------- Post added at 11:43:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:00:21 AM ----------

I have another thought, and question now that you really have me thinking about LF sheet metal.

On the hood there is a piece of angle iron and then a hood brace at the rear of the engine which goes down to the rearmost head stud in a V shape.
Here is the info from the parts book:

E-1322 Hood Angle Iron 3/16"x 1 1/2"x 1 1/2" Angle 27 3/4" long Use 5- 5/16"x 1/2" Pan Hd. Iron Rivets. St. 2 lbs. $.84
(this would be mounted to the bottom side of the hood)

E-1323 Hood Brace 3/16"x 1"x 2'-1 7/8" Use 2- 5/16"x 1" Hex. Hd. Tap Bolts. 2- 5/16" S. F. Hex. Nuts. 2- 5/16" SAE Lock Washers. St. 12oz. $.94
(this is the V shaped piece)

E-1324 Cylinder Head Stud 1/2"x 5 3/8" Used with E-1323 St. 6oz. $.15

The rearmost head stud is 3/8" longer to accommodate the Hood Brace, the other head studs are only 5" long.

So my question that goes with this info is what years of LF used this brace? All of them? Did the 18-30's use them as well?
I am missing all of these parts on all of my LF's

The holes where the rivets of the Hood Angle Iron mount can be seen in the pic in post #10 of that 1926 hood.
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Old 01-22-2017, 01:22:53 AM
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers 20-35 and 18-30 sheetmetal

The hood brace connected to the head stud must be a later long fender change. I checked the head studs on my 18-30, and they are all the same length. I've looked at the hood on the 18-30 in Crosby, ND and there isnt any center hood support or holes where one was in the past either.

Matt
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Old 01-22-2017, 04:26:31 PM
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers 20-35 and 18-30 sheetmetal

I have a hood in the shop from a greyhound. It is a 2 pc. hood, I take it as they are different from AC 20-35. They owner said something about different radiator tank, sound right. Big hood I know that, thankfully 2 pc..
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Old 01-22-2017, 05:49:30 PM
Jacob WI Jacob WI is offline
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Default Re: Allis Chalmers 20-35 and 18-30 sheetmetal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob in Mi. View Post
I have a hood in the shop from a greyhound. It is a 2 pc. hood, I take it as they are different from AC 20-35. They owner said something about different radiator tank, sound right. Big hood I know that, thankfully 2 pc..
While I am not an expert on Greyhounds, I'll share what I know. My reference book says that tractors were sold from 1925-1930 under the Greyhound name. They were basically an Allis with a couple of things changed.

I'm not sure if they made many longfender 20-35's as base tractors for Geyhounds? Allis didn't change to shortfenders until '27, but most pics I have seen of Greyhounds are based on Shortfender 20-35's.

The top tank is the same shape as AC, except it is much taller. For more cooling capacity for the large engine I have heard.
And I believe the gas tank is either different, or has a piece added on top of it to gain the same height as the rad top tank. The hood I suspect was longer on the sides to compensate for the taller tank?
I didn't realize they were two piece hoods. Are they split down the center length wise? Hinged? How are they held together?

Paul Roidt has a Greyhound, he might be able to add to this discussion. I'm sure someone else here must have a Greyhound as well who can add much more than I know.

Oh yeah, I should look before I talk, here is a bunch of good info!
https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52900

Last edited by Jacob WI; 01-22-2017 at 06:00:47 PM. Reason: fix info
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