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Hornsby 4hp


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  #1  
Old 08-06-2018, 04:32:11 AM
Lanzb Lanzb is offline
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Default Hornsby 4hp

Hi Guys, I'm still on the lookout for a hot bulb for my 4hp '05 hornsby, same bulb as the one pictured, casting number XH41.

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  #2  
Old 08-06-2018, 05:44:43 AM
Paul Richardson Paul Richardson is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby 4hp

G'day Lanzb,a mate of mine called about 2 days ago to tell me he had found one with those or similar markings?He seemed to think it had some life left in it.There's a bit of a story involved and currently he's looking for more of the engine.He found a cast iron cover a few years back,now the hotbulb has surfaced,literally,via 20 ton excavator.
I have some patterns but I think my larger one is for 3 and 3.5hp?..a touch smaller than yours?
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  #3  
Old 08-06-2018, 05:54:46 AM
Lanzb Lanzb is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby 4hp

Thanks Paul, I think I did get some measurements off you for your larger pattern which was a bit smaller than the one I want, I just thought I'd give it one more try before I fabricate one.
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Old 08-06-2018, 07:49:24 AM
Paul Richardson Paul Richardson is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby 4hp

My mate with the recent find is the kind of bloke to help out if he can with parts.I will see how he is going with the dig,..and also find out if we are talking the identical part number?You never know.
Is yours missing completely ,or damaged?,.....hotbulb cover present?
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  #5  
Old 08-07-2018, 01:22:19 AM
Lanzb Lanzb is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby 4hp

My Hot bulb is missing completely, I have managed to get the cover for it.
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  #6  
Old 08-14-2018, 07:49:30 AM
Paul Richardson Paul Richardson is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby 4hp

Re the spare hotbulb Lanz,...the dig site is producing more small parts,such as rear skew gear cover and front governor drive cover.
My mate is keen to hang onto everything that has surfaced for now, to see how much more turns up when he gets a chance to have a proper dig.
I will try to keep you posted as he keeps searching.

Last edited by Paul Richardson; 08-14-2018 at 07:31:29 PM.
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Old 08-20-2018, 06:20:20 AM
Lanzb Lanzb is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby 4hp

Hey Paul, when you have cast the new hot bulbs do you cast them with the fins inside or just empty?
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  #8  
Old 08-20-2018, 07:45:00 AM
Paul Richardson Paul Richardson is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby 4hp

The short answer Lanz is "both".
The first one of these I made was for a girder engine,6.5bhp.Being an engine with fairly low surviving numbers there were few enough people around that I could ask the same question of who had actually seen inside one.Eventually I went with the assurance from an owner that they had no fins.His engine had been manufactured only a year or two earlier than mine,and the hotbulb was an original Hornsby part,believed to be original to the engine.He had removed it at some stage and was surprised to see it plain on the inside.The girder engine hotbulb is a BIG lump of cast,being around 8" diameter.The chap I got the advice from reported that his engine would run unloaded in very cold weather and was not known for having the problem of getting too cool to run.I had heard this same story from other owners of these things,pointing to the size of the hotbulb as the reason.
Not long after I had cast mine I was swapping parts with another owner who's engine was about 5 years earlier than mine.When I got the opportunity one day to peer in side his hotbulb,......and yep!..there the fins were!His was an unusual mix of fittings originally from the factory,having the 'improved' style fuel valve mounted with two screws to the hotbulb instead of three and no water cooling to the valve.It had many 'improved' or 1900 style fittings yet was distinctly what I call the "heavy" pattern engine like my own.
A long explanation I know Lanz but I'm hoping to share what I have found rather than theorise,because I think it's more valuable.
The next one I made was for 2bhp 1905 style?It also was copied from a very original engine.When it was removed we found that it was bare inside.I built it after sitting around with a few mates over several evenings,making debate about fabrication vs pattern making and casting.There is no right answer to an argument like that of course,because each individual has their own gift and limitation when it comes to the basic skills required and available materials,machinery and the like.Time is another factor.That was no reason to stop arguing though!I didn't need a hotbulb for that model myself,but got some kind of a bee in my bonnet with the discussion,so I went home and built one.It took a few days messing around to rough out the main shape,then a few more days with the fiddly bits.
The last one I built was for 3bhp,and might also be a fit for some 3.5bhp rated engines of a similar size?I didn't need one of those either but was enjoying myself and helping one or two other enthusiasts at the same time.
Putting the fins in the cast versions is very simple.All I had to do was to give the moulder a drawing of the core and some simple instructions.The cemented sand is apparently very easy to carve.
Perhaps another clue while you are considering fabricating a hotbulb?The 20bhp improved Akroyd that lives in the Sunshine shed at LGS has a fabricated hotbulb.It is the basic shape of a cylinder capped at one end and I think there are pieces of strap welded in place inside for fins.It's a strange and unglamorous sight when the huge cover is removed,but the idea at the time I'm sure was all about function.It's a little different to the heavy Akroyd and the 1905 type A shape hotbulbs,but the principle is the same.The improved models have less hot metal in the design and water jacketing to the rear half and neck area of the hotbulb.The makeshift reproduction on that particular engine seems to have been effective as far as running goes.
Hoping that helps in some way?
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  #9  
Old 08-21-2018, 02:10:42 AM
Lanzb Lanzb is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby 4hp

Thanks for the info Paul, I did look inside the hot bulb on the 20 hp at LGS while I was installing the new head on it, and it did have a few fins welded inside it and it does retain the heat ok while it's running, it actually keeps a dull red glow with no load. I am half way through fabricating one currently and have most of the steel work done, I think it would retain enough heat with no fins but just wondered how you had made the recast ones.

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  #10  
Old 08-21-2018, 06:59:13 AM
Paul Richardson Paul Richardson is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby 4hp

I had no idea Lanz when quoting that example that you were much more familiar with that 20bhp engine than myself!Fred gave me a look at some of the early patternwork being prepared to create the new head for the engine.He explained plans to me there at LGS one day showing me the larger pattern forms that he had roughed out.
Putting the fins in most of the hotbulbs I have had cast has meant handing the moulder a kindergarten sketch based on the diagram on the left in my pic.I think a skinny chainsaw file makes a good 'fin' tool when cutting the necessary grooves in the core.The cemented or resin based sand can easily be carved by hand,and quite rapidly I'm told.
I wanted to put fins into my own larger hotbulb casting even though at the time I had thought that they were not an original feature for that model,but I had my wires crossed with the foundry.I had arrived there expecting to be able to remove the core and to start carving.It turned out that the Moulder had gone a step further in setting up the mould box and pointed out that the core was considered to be a permanent fixture to the mould box the day I arrived.

Nice work with your fab job btw!
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  #11  
Old 08-21-2018, 04:15:26 PM
Merv C Merv C is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby 4hp

Some of the Hornsby drawings don't show fins in the Hot Bulb. When I had my 3 1/2 hp Hot bulb made my old one was cut in half and used as a pattern The fins in that one were almost eroded away. The remains were ground out. The core was resin and the fins shaped the way Paul described. I think some guess work was involved.
The Auckland Club have a casting weekend at a friendly foundry in Wanganui every year and that year my Son was there with my Hot bulb and cast the new one. Apparently it was a bit complicated. A friend machined it and now the old Hornsby runs well
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  #12  
Old 08-22-2018, 01:28:33 AM
Lanzb Lanzb is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby 4hp

I'm not too sure why it would need the fins anyway, when the engines are run under load the hot bulb will normally glow red hot anyway, unless it was more for strength instead?
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Old 08-22-2018, 05:33:26 AM
Paul Richardson Paul Richardson is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby 4hp

These oil engines are most accurately described as "hot surface ignition" engines.Thinking along those lines the addition of fins to the design would mean quite a substantial increase in internal surface area in the hotbulb?
The improved style hotbulb arrangement had less hot surface than their forerunners but were still finned.They were typically rated at a horsepower or two extra from the same physical size engine.For instance if you ever wondered about the physical size of a 16bhp girder engine,you need only to measure the 20bhp improved engine at LGS.The same comparison appears amongst the 1905 style engines with the 'type B' engine.The gains in horsepower while keeping the same physical size has largely been attributed to having some degree of control over the hotbulb temperature.
I had a conversation once with an original owner of a 6.5bhp girder engine. He and his brother had worked it regularly cutting chaff and benching wood until the mid 1950s.He reported that it was not difficult to overload the engine while working it causing it to suffer from power fade.
My own engine was another example that most likely became outdated in terms of power output in a fairly short period of time for the same reason?It had been "Deutscherised" like many other early oil engines in the district.The original hotbulb from my engine was never recovered.The engine wreck when I took ownership was wearing a 22 flick mag bracket and Deutscher carburettor parts were found using a gold detector.
None of that waffle will make a lot of difference Lanz,to the future of your engine or mine,unless you intend to work yours hard for long periods?
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  #14  
Old 08-28-2018, 05:22:41 AM
Lanzb Lanzb is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby 4hp

Well here's the hot bulb just about finished, only time will tell if it's going to work ok.

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Old 08-28-2018, 07:48:47 AM
Darryl Darryl is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby 4hp

Nice job !
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Old 08-29-2018, 04:19:12 AM
peter coleman peter coleman is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby 4hp

Hi all just a little modification we did to our 2 hp Hornsby we drilled and tapped into the front of the hot bulb and fitted a Ronny type hot coil to it we now run the engine on diesel and never have to put the blow lamp near it when running in any weather its all under the cover and no one would know
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Old 08-29-2018, 05:16:07 AM
Merv C Merv C is offline
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Default Re: Hornsby 4hp

Lanz, that hot bulb looks great and should work.
Here is the one we made for my 3 1/2 Hp.

Merv.

[IMG]Hornsby025_zps7491fcb3 by Merv Cloake, on Flickr[/IMG]
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