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Another Austral Joins the Collection.


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  #1  
Old 01-18-2015, 05:41:08 AM
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Patrick M Livingstone Patrick M Livingstone is offline
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Default Another Austral Joins the Collection.

I bought this one recently and finally had the chance to go and get it on the weekend. It was a 1760km round trip, but well worth it. It is a 1912 Austral but shows signs of possibly being a much earlier engine. There is an impressive amount of original paint. Many thanks to the Pitt boys for their help in getting this one home. Patrick
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  #2  
Old 01-18-2015, 07:00:15 AM
karragullengine karragullengine is offline
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

What a fantastic engine to get. I'd love one of these one day. Can't believe that paint has survived in such good condition, this must have been very well looked after in its life.
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  #3  
Old 01-18-2015, 10:25:00 PM
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Ron Haskell Ron Haskell is offline
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

Great addition to the collection Patrick. Do I see a larger shed in your future?
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Old 01-18-2015, 11:28:33 PM
Darryl Darryl is offline
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

Hi Patrick , could you tell us what are the signs of the engine that indicate it being older than what the serial no. says. Very nice engine, cheers, Darryl.
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Old 01-19-2015, 02:38:17 AM
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Patrick M Livingstone Patrick M Livingstone is offline
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darryl View Post
Hi Patrick , could you tell us what are the signs of the engine that indicate it being older than what the serial no. says. Very nice engine, cheers, Darryl.
Hi Darryl, the biggest thing that suggests it is an earlier engine is the crankcase. It is the early type casting with the indents in the side to allow for the pushrod gear and the water pump eccentric (on the portables). The only non-converted pushrod engine to have this style crankcase is No.226 (the flyball sideshaft Austral). It also has the low, thin sides only seen on early engines.
One of the other early features on this engine is the small pulley on the sideshaft side. It is the governor drive pulley used on the pushrod engines! Why it was left on a sideshaft conversion is a mystery. It has been put on the other side of the engine to where it would normally be mounted but it is still on the engine.


I now need to do some careful cleaning and see if there is evidence of the pushrod gear hole being filled and also look for an earlier number on the bearings. It is likely that it is an earlier engine but I will not be 100% convinced until I find some physical evidence. Either way it is a very original example of Ronaldson-Tippett's fine workmanship. Patrick

---------- Post added at 05:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:04 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Ron Haskell View Post
Great addition to the collection Patrick. Do I see a larger shed in your future?
Not a bigger shed yet. I can still squeeze most of them into the space I have Patrick
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Old 01-19-2015, 02:56:47 AM
Darryl Darryl is offline
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

That's excellent , can I ask, was it in a collection or in a factory basement or what? Thanks for the previous info .
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Old 01-19-2015, 03:48:47 AM
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Patrick M Livingstone Patrick M Livingstone is offline
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darryl View Post
That's excellent , can I ask, was it in a collection or in a factory basement or what? Thanks for the previous info .
I purchased it off another collector who had owned it for a long time and did not have any history of its working life. The engine must have spent most of its working life inside to have so much original paint left on it. Patrick

---------- Post added at 06:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:02 PM ----------

Another odd thing on this engine. All of the other engines I have seen with this style crankcase have the oil drain out this side. This has been plugged and a new drain drilled in the middle of the crankcase with a pipe threaded down through the sub base.

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Old 01-19-2015, 04:17:05 AM
Nathan Woodruff Nathan Woodruff is offline
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

do you think we will see this one running soon? also what are your intentions for it as in make a cart for it or have it on permanent display in your shed?
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  #9  
Old 01-19-2015, 04:42:17 AM
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Patrick M Livingstone Patrick M Livingstone is offline
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

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Originally Posted by Nathan Woodruff View Post
do you think we will see this one running soon? also what are your intentions for it as in make a cart for it or have it on permanent display in your shed?
It would take very little to get it running apart from both flywheel hubs being damaged. It looks like it had run for some time with the flywheels in the state they are in but I don't think I will chance it. Once the flywheel issue is resolved it will probably make it to a few rallies but I think I will mount it on skids to save space in the garage and to preserve the stationary nature of the engine. Something like this would look good. This is the identical engine with the long air pipe and pushrod gear idents in the crankcase. Patrick
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Old 01-19-2015, 05:25:22 AM
Wayne Timms Wayne Timms is offline
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

Hello Patrick,

Looks like the same engine as I posted in item 32 of the thread below.

http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showth...=140878&page=2

So is it a Crossley head or an Austral head on this engine, I can't see any difference between the two?

"I purchased it off another collector who had owned it for a long time and did not have any history of its working life."

What a shame the previous owner didn't have the full working history of the engine or where it came from. I am sure with your extensive Austral knowledge and information you will piece together the engines history.

Regards,
Wayne

www.bluefuel-whitesmoke.com
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  #11  
Old 01-20-2015, 02:08:40 AM
cobbadog cobbadog is offline
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

Here I will go showing my total lack of knowledge on this topic.
Is it possible to repair the hubs by welding and then having them machined back to specs?
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Old 01-20-2015, 02:31:53 AM
Alastair Geddes. Alastair Geddes. is offline
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

If the flywheel hubs are cracked? is that the damage problem ?your better off casting new flywheels.
Rather than trying to weld cast which is difficult to do on large thick castings and highly dubious in regard to cracking again.
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Old 01-20-2015, 04:55:47 AM
Nathan Woodruff Nathan Woodruff is offline
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

hi i am certain that these are pictures of the same engine and this shows the damage to the hubs. one hub appears to be tied together with fencing wire.
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  #14  
Old 01-20-2015, 05:12:02 AM
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

There are detailed pics of the engine on my site at: http://www.oldengine.org/members/pml/myaustral824.html Both flywheels have ridden up over the keys and either this or someone trying to secure them again has damaged the hubs. The nearside one has the pushrod governor drive pulley and some wire holding it together and the far side one has a whole chunk missing and some extra metal hammered in. It may have been run this way in its working life which would have caused some of the damage. This problem is not uncommon on early Australs. The smaller horsepower sizes only used a single key where the larger engines used two. This problem was eliminated in 1917 when the smaller engines went to the split hub design. Repairing them is wishful thinking and they will either be replaced with some from a donor engine or new ones will be cast. For now the engine will have a good clean and be put aside as other projects (as well as family and work) have higher priority. Patrick
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Old 01-20-2015, 06:05:38 AM
Alastair Geddes. Alastair Geddes. is offline
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

When you make new ones put two small radii in the corner of the gib head keyway in the flywheel this will lessen stresses on the corner of the keyway and lessen the chances of cracking again.
When you fit the gib heads put a small radii on the corresponding keys and fit the normal way, scrape to get a good tight key.
Many old flywheels had sharp corners as they did not know about stress raisers way back then only FEA and practical experience showed this up.

Also you can cast the flywheels in Nodular iron instead of grey iron as nodular is more crack resistant than grey, its a simple alteration of the mix when you melt the metal.
Nodular iron is sometimes called Speroidal graphite iron or SG iron it has similar vibration dampening properties to grey iron.
Cast iron is good in compression but poor in tension due to engine cycles it will go from tension to compression and back again many times as it runs and you cannot do much about that as energy is given and taken from the flywheel.
If it was a split hub i would recommend fitting and shimming the split in the hub so sub parts remain in compression, a certain level of crush is needed to keep it tight on the shaft.
If you broke it down to a free body spoke by spoke and you invisage forces acting and you will see forces add on split hubs without shims on sections of the hub.
anyway hope that helps.
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Old 01-20-2015, 06:14:41 AM
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Timms View Post
Hello Patrick, Looks like the same engine as I posted in item 32 of the thread below. http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showth...=140878&page=2 So is it a Crossley head or an Austral head on this engine, I can't see any difference between the two? "I purchased it off another collector who had owned it for a long time and did not have any history of its working life." What a shame the previous owner didn't have the full working history of the engine or where it came from. I am sure with your extensive Austral knowledge and information you will piece together the engines history. Regards, Wayne www.bluefuel-whitesmoke.com
Hi Wayne, there is no documented connection between Crossley and Ronaldson-Tippett whilst it is well known that Ronaldson-Tippett based their sideshaft engines on those of Blackstone. I have no valuable opinion of the similarity between the head on a Crossley and that of a standard sideshaft Austral. I am told that my new engine is one that may have been recovered by your father many years ago. Do you have any recollection of its history prior to preservation? Apart from the flywheels (which would have been damaged in service) the engine appears to have been well looked after. Patrick
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Old 01-20-2015, 07:51:37 AM
Paul Richardson Paul Richardson is offline
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick M Livingstone View Post
There are detailed pics of the engine on my site at: http://www.oldengine.org/members/pml/myaustral824.html Repairing them is wishful thinking and they will either be replaced with some from a donor engine or new ones will be cast.
Hi Patrick.I guess you would be hoping to find some "low 3 digit" flywheels ?
Is the engine 5?..or 6hp?,and perhaps a diameter measurement?
It's not something I have personally,but I saw a set No.3##,(6 hp I think?) loaded onto a trailer here a few years back from a wreck;that sort of thing might find you?
I couldn't see myself handling a repair,but I have heard of a bulky 'sleeve with a boss' style insert being used for overkeyed hubs.A new casting can be reasonable, until the foundry realises how bad you need it.
I think the last 6 months or so might be a little better time to find a foundry willing to talk a better price?Certainly an interesting old engine!
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Old 01-20-2015, 04:54:26 PM
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

Hi Paul.
This is a bit of an oddball sized engine. The flywheels are 2ft 11" on a 2 & 3/16" crankshaft. The bore is 6" (the same as a 3.5hp/4hp) but the crankshaft is the same as my 5.5hp engine. The stroke is 13" which is more than the 3.5hp engine and the engine has a top air valve like the larger horsepower engines (the smaller engines have the air valve on the side).
I am still digging through comparing it with other engine dimensions, but my best guess at the moment is that it is a 4.5hp engine.
Patrick
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Old 01-20-2015, 08:35:43 PM
Paul Richardson Paul Richardson is offline
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

Thanks Patrick,2ft 11inches is really only coming up to about waist high,and seems smaller than I imagined at first.The early flywheels I saw here were certainly larger and were off a 6hp I think?Perhaps it is that top airvalve style that makes me think of it as a larger engine?
I see those early engines can vary widely in dimensions,and especially in your case I think where you suspect it was a factory remake of a much earlier number.
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Old 01-21-2015, 02:53:35 AM
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Default Re: Another Austral joins the collection.

Now I have seen the pictures I too would be looking for replacements. If recasting id the final decision the info provided by Alastair Geddes is very interesting and broadens our views on what grade steel/iron is available now.
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