Antique Engines and Old Iron
[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Library] - [Photo Gallery] - [Groups] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Links] - [Books] - [Sponsors] -

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® Shop Equipment Tools and Techniques > Machine Shop and Tool Talk
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Machine Shop and Tool Talk Shop Equipment, fabrication, repairs, how to fix it, which tool to use for the job. Machinist shop talk, straight to the point.

Machine Shop and Tool Talk

Re: How it's Done 3-5


this thread has 102 replies and has been viewed 39742 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 08-30-2015, 04:00:41 PM
beezerbill beezerbill is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 1,153
Thanks: 179
Thanked 618 Times in 414 Posts
Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Interesting work!

I have a question about cylinder sleeves - how thin can a cast iron sleeve be and still work OK without cracking or breaking up? The reason I ask is I have a cast iron cylinder that has some deep rust pits in it - it probably needs to be sleeved or replaced outright. The cylinder is off of an Ingersoll Rand 3-R-36 compressor and is probably nearly impossible to find, as are oversized pistons for this engine. The original piston from the pitted cylinder is in good shape. (The 3-R-36 is a radial configuration engine driven compressor - three power cylinders interleaved with three compressor cylinders all sharing a common crank pin.) The real problem is the cylinder wall is already kind of thin - the bore is 3 1/8 inches and the smallest part of the OD (down by the case, below the fins) is 3 7/16 inches. If I bore the cylinder out for a standard 1/16 wall sleeve this leaves me with only 3/32 wall thickness at the base of the cylinder, which seems kind of thin, and I worry about the cylinder cracking apart under load. (The cylinder is bolted to the case around the base and has separate head bolts - it does not have through studs.) So one option is to use a thinner wall sleeve but I am not sure how thin I can go. LA Sleeve claims I can go to .050 wall thickness on the sleeve - is it possible to go any thinner than that? I looked into having the inside of the cylinder metal sprayed and rebored but all the places I contacted thought the pits, at ~ .025 thou, were too deep for that to work. My only other option is to turn an entire cylinder out of a cast iron blank. Thank you in advance for any thoughts you might have on this.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #32  
Old 08-30-2015, 07:17:46 PM
John Tice's Avatar
John Tice John Tice is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Posts: 121
Thanks: 3
Thanked 73 Times in 38 Posts
Question Re: How thick of a sleeve

Since sleeve / liners are under compression of 1 kind or another; cracking & breaking isnt an issue. I dont use sleeves thinner than 1/16 The gentlemen from LA & I are on the same wave length. Heres the key; The ID of your new sleeve should be at least .100 ID undersized before you start.

When we resleeve a 2 stroke; I usually start with an ID around .150 smaller since we have to remove it again to machine the ports. You can do the math if youre purchasing an LA Sleeve, Dave can give you a hand on the thickness.

Id also recommend a step at the bottom like the Aluminum Briggs back a bit in the column. With a step at the bottom your press fit need not be more than .0005, a thou. How about some pictures of the cylinders so we can all understand your situation?

It seems like the original pistons would be fine to use over again as long as the skirt clearance is adjusted & the rings are gaped correctly

To sum it up; a very light press with a step at the bottom. You may be able to drop the .0005 shrink fit in with the cylinder heated to around 500deg F. If you decide to do the heating method; you should heat the cylinder & do an expansion test first.

If all of this seems a little confusing; Ill do the job for $150.00 per cylinder including the sleeve.
This would make a good story for this thread
JT
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 09-01-2015, 09:37:15 AM
beezerbill beezerbill is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 1,153
Thanks: 179
Thanked 618 Times in 414 Posts
Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Pictures will be on their way - just need time to get to the shop and take them.

It is not really the sleeve I am worried about breaking, it is the cylinder barrel itself, as it's wall will be only around .090 thick at the base after being bored for the sleeve. Because the barrel is held down by bolts at the base and not studs, the iron barrel itself is under significant tension during combustion. The reason I was thinking of making the sleeve as thin as possible is so that less material would have to be bored out of the barrel, leaving it with a thicker wall. It would mean needing to turn down the OD of a standard sleeve, though. And maybe 090 inch is thick enough for the barrel wall - I just don't know.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 09-01-2015, 07:40:23 PM
John Tice's Avatar
John Tice John Tice is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Posts: 121
Thanks: 3
Thanked 73 Times in 38 Posts
Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Beezer; maybe split the difference i.e. the sleeve & cylinder the same thickness. Maybe a flanged sleeve at the top would be a better choice. With a flange at the top or a step at the bottom the shrink fit might be closer to zero. The flange or step would hold the sleeve in place sandwich style. You were going to post a picture? Im not sure of what Id recommend without having the parts on my workbench. Do you have facilities to machine a flanged sleeve?

We use expanding mandrels to chuck thin sleeves





Call me any time till 9pm pacific 503-593-2908 JT www.smallenginemachineworks.com
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 09-02-2015, 11:11:02 PM
beezerbill beezerbill is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 1,153
Thanks: 179
Thanked 618 Times in 414 Posts
Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Managed to get a photo of the cylinder barrel, and one of the connecting rod arrangement just for grins. Not sure how I will proceed at this point - I guess I need to convince myself the barrel will still be strong enough after being bored out for a 1/16 wall sleeve.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	100_0437.jpg
Views:	118
Size:	83.0 KB
ID:	233490   Click image for larger version

Name:	100_0443.jpg
Views:	109
Size:	69.1 KB
ID:	233491  
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 09-03-2015, 12:40:49 AM
John Tice's Avatar
John Tice John Tice is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Posts: 121
Thanks: 3
Thanked 73 Times in 38 Posts
Smile That's it

Akuna has a very good idea; if your cylinder is bored no further down than the rings at bdc the worn area could be sleeved without getting into the thin area.
Great idea
This is what we do to Subaru cylinders; the seam doesn't even show

The place where GREAT minds meet


Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 09-03-2015, 12:58:56 AM
eddie bedwell eddie bedwell is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: melbourne victoria australia
Posts: 274
Thanks: 5,864
Thanked 209 Times in 123 Posts
Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Hi Team,
following on from Akuna's great suggestion would be to look into ending the sleeve level with the centre of the lower cooling fin--if possible--being very sure to have a nice smooth radiused corner in the barrel to lessen the likelihood of a stress raiser and resultant fatigue failure at the end of the bore cut. The sleeve would need to be radiused to suit for a seamless finish at the joint interfaces.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Eddie B.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 09-03-2015, 08:37:17 AM
John Tice's Avatar
John Tice John Tice is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Posts: 121
Thanks: 3
Thanked 73 Times in 38 Posts
Default Stepped cylinder

If we did this project; I would center the boring bar spindle below the resleeved area. When we bore the new sleeve & finish hone the cylinder the transition point wont show.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 09-05-2015, 04:32:24 PM
John Tice's Avatar
John Tice John Tice is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Posts: 121
Thanks: 3
Thanked 73 Times in 38 Posts
Photo Re: How it's Done 4-1

Sleeve 650 Triumph twin 4-1

This particular How its Done could be most any type of cast iron cylinder. We sleeve a number of the British twin cylinders each year & this particular cylinder fits right in with our specialty.
This cylinder is a rather simple installation; Im machining & press fitting straight 1/16 wall sleeves to bring this cylinder back to standard bore. This job could fit most any other iron cylinder that you could own.





I sort thru our inventory of sleeve castings & pick out a couple which will machine to our requirements. Another reason that this is an easy installation is because the twin cylinders fit nicely into our boring stand multi cylinder slots.


This cylinder clamps nicely beneath the boring stand

For those of you who are familiar with green sand castings, you can see the horizontal parting line in the casting.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 09-05-2015, 05:07:30 PM
beezerbill beezerbill is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 1,153
Thanks: 179
Thanked 618 Times in 414 Posts
Default Re: How it's Done 3-5

Interesting suggestion - sleeving only the "combustion part" of the cylinder. I will look into this further and see how far down the sleeve would need to go so that the rings don't have transition from the sleeved part to the original bore, and if the cylinder wall is thick enough there.

I apologize in advance for any delays in responding - this is the time of year we are madly putting up hay for the horses. We need to get about 14 tons in before the snow flies (usually in October around here), all of it down a mile of jeep trail which includes about 200 yards of 30% grade.

I am all too familiar with British twins. A friend of mine had a 650 Triumph that never ran real great and always burned oil. We took it apart and found the cylinder bores were about .015 inch closer together at the top of the cylinder than they were at the bottom. Had it rebored and it worked great after that.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:41:58 AM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2016 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277