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Kohler 100KW Generator 100ROZ71


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  #21  
Old 06-02-2019, 04:20:44 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Kohler 100KW Generator 100ROZ71

Found a little time to play with this machine the past 2 evenings. Removed all the loose wiring that would have gone to ATS, what I was left with in loose wires is #3 & #4, which as indicated in Post #16 would be to start/stop engine. Hmm, re-reading post 16 you say terminals 3 & 4, and I see those marked terminal, yet also have wires marked 3 & 4 hanging loose, see first pic below.

Leads coming off generator are a pissy mess because they just cut them in removal, but think I have it figured out. The asterisk symbol indicates it has a current transformer, question mark indicates no number on lead, so there is #3* & #9, #7 & #?*, #? & #?*, leads 4,5,6 and 10,11,12 go to ground lug. Data tag indicates it is wired for 120/208, and I believe the above wiring would indicate that, but really need a manual to be sure. The other loose wires in this area are V1, its the white wire hanging at bottom of box, and wires V2-88 or 8B- and 8, all 3 zip tied to the ? & ?* main leads in center of pic. See second pic.

Question, what does the 3 pole 50amp breaker on gen housing control? It can be seen to left of data tag on post#2 , second pic.

Turbo is Airesearch T04, data tag has these numbers LG0157 (the G might be a 6?), and 40-3897707. Started making an adapter for turbo last night from a piece of schedule 80 pipe, upon final fitting it felt like it was rocking, close examination shows there is a compressed copper wire? gasket in there, looks burnt on 1 side, guess I need to call the turbo shop in SA and see if they can get a new one.

Spoke with previous engineer to see if he had any manuals, he did not think so but said he would save my number in case he found something.
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  #22  
Old 06-02-2019, 05:50:07 PM
LWB250 LWB250 is offline
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Default Re: Kohler 100KW Generator 100ROZ71

The three pole circuit breaker is driven by the CTs on the output to trip in the vent of a high current (overload) situation. When the breaker trips, one set of contacts on the breaker opens and removes B+ from the voltage regulator to turn off the output.

It's known as a "safeguard breaker" and is unique in that the trip curve for the breaker is designed around the damage curve of the alternator.

Dan
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  #23  
Old 06-02-2019, 06:37:46 PM
Zephyr7 Zephyr7 is online now
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Post Re: Kohler 100KW Generator 100ROZ71

The wires that all connect to that ground bar are your neutral. The other 6 leads are your phases (two wires for each phase in the wye). This is a “low wye” configuration. Normally both wires of each phase go through the current transformer (CT) for that respective phase. You can find out which lead pairs with which other lead if you have an impedance meter. An ohmmeter is not going to be able to do this. The other option is to clamp all the wires apart (zip tie them in a row to a piece of plastic pipe or a wooden dowel), then check voltages between them. Wires that are part of the same phase will show little voltage between them (maybe a few to a few tens of volts). Wires that are members of different phases will show around 208v between them, assuming your regulator is set correctly. Obviously the genset needs to be running to be able to do this test.

I might have a drawing for the generator wiring configurations. I have to see if your genset is covered by one of my drawing sets — most of these drawings cover multiple models.

The control leads 3 and 4 should be for remote start. Having remote start on “3 and 4” is a standard.

Also, you really need to put compression lugs (the big crimp-on terminals) on those leads from the generator end. There are two reasons for this:
1- the fine strand wire gets chewed up in regular mechanical lugs (the kind with a screw to clamp the wire). You can’t use wirenuts either, and using split bolts is just a bad idea.
2- the wire from the generator end is special high temperature wire, usually rated 125C or 150C. Regular wire is usually rated 90C or less. Regular mechanical lugs are only rated for 75C. Compression lugs are usually rated to 90C or higher, and they’re really the only “right” way to terminate these wires.

You can use a breaker with an electronic trip module for the output. For a 100kw genset setupnfor 120/208 output that'll probably be a 400A breaker. I would recommend a Siemens FXD frame breaker which can often be found used for not too much money. You’ll need some copper details (busbar pieces) to connect the compression lugs to the breaker. If you can’t find these on eBay (make sure they fit your breaker), I can refer you to a UL listed electrical fabricator run by a friend of mine that can make them for you (they might have stock, they work with Siemens stuff all the time). They won’t be very expensive.

Be careful making parts for the turbo. I think the shell has some vanes in it to deal with turbulent airflow, it’s not just a regular piece like a plumbing fitting would be.

I’ve attached the generator end wiring diagrams from the 20-100RZ manual. It’s probably right for your genset. I can send you the entire manual if you want, just PM me your email address.

Bill
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  #24  
Old 06-02-2019, 07:06:08 PM
Zephyr7 Zephyr7 is online now
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Default Re: Kohler 100KW Generator 100ROZ71

I see why they put the CTs around only one of each group of two wires -- they're only 200A CTs. I suppose they expect the current sharing between the two windings to be split evenly, but that's not really a good idea. Better to get some 400:5 CTs and replace the ones you have, then wire the way the drawings show with both leads of each phase through the same CT.

Bill
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  #25  
Old 06-02-2019, 07:32:05 PM
Vanman Vanman is online now
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Default Re: Kohler 100KW Generator 100ROZ71

Sounds like all good information. I was also going to suggest the voltmeter method of determining which wire is which. With all six still tied to the neutral bus it's super straight forward.

Curious why you don't like split bolts though?

Keith
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  #26  
Old 06-02-2019, 07:39:05 PM
Zephyr7 Zephyr7 is online now
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Default Re: Kohler 100KW Generator 100ROZ71

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanman View Post
Curious why you don't like split bolts though?
Never for inside of anything. Split bolts need tape. Tape wears through in vibrating things, like inside generators. Once they tape wears through, excitement happens.

I don't like them on ground wires either since they can loosen and go unnoticed. I use C and H taps, and occasionally barrels, for ground wire splices, or cadweld shots.

I'm OK using them for outdoor aerial connections, or certain other things where they are suspended, but I generally try to avoid their use. In generators, I like to use a glastic insulator and compression lugs if I need an insulated point to connect a few heavy wires together.

Bill
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  #27  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:49:40 AM
LWB250 LWB250 is offline
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Default Re: Kohler 100KW Generator 100ROZ71

DO NOT change the CTs that are feeding the safeguard breaker! They are intended to sense the amount of current required to prevent damage to the generator in a full field condition. If you change them to a different value you risk damaging the generator.

They also feed the metering, so if they're changed the metering won't reflect the correct values - but this is a minor issue compared to the potential for damage.

The wire used on the output leads is silver plated copper. And yes, you should use compression lugs on it. No exceptions.

Dan
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  #28  
Old 06-03-2019, 10:31:19 AM
Zephyr7 Zephyr7 is online now
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Default Re: Kohler 100KW Generator 100ROZ71

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Originally Posted by LWB250 View Post
DO NOT change the CTs that are feeding the safeguard breaker! They are intended to sense the amount of current required to prevent damage to the generator in a full field condition. If you change them to a different value you risk damaging the generator.
That is a very good point. I should have thought of that. I was thinking "just metering" which is what the CTs are usually doing on the larger gensets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LWB250 View Post
The wire used on the output leads is silver plated copper. And yes, you should use compression lugs on it. No exceptions.
Silver plated? Not tin? I've seen tin plating tons of times, and nickel a few times on really high temperature specialty wire (200 or 250+ C), but silver is usually just on the mil-spec teflon stuff.

Either way, that wire really needs compression lugs, not any kind of mechanical connectors.

Bill
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  #29  
Old 06-03-2019, 01:22:13 PM
Vanman Vanman is online now
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Default Re: Kohler 100KW Generator 100ROZ71

Well... If a 200:5 CT is metering just one of two paralleled lines, and you replace it with a 400:5 CT and run both lines through it instead... I can't see the result being any different...

The only conceivable difference would be if the two paralleled windings had different impedances. But they shouldn't...

Keith
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  #30  
Old 06-03-2019, 01:32:35 PM
Birken Vogt Birken Vogt is offline
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Default Re: Kohler 100KW Generator 100ROZ71

If you just don't overload the generator, then the safeguard system will never come into play anyway. I would just leave it as is.
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  #31  
Old 06-03-2019, 02:12:32 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Kohler 100KW Generator 100ROZ71

Because of the way they cut them, and the "set" of the leads, its pretty easy to tell what the pairs are, just some of them are missing number tags. Looking at Marathon 12 lead wiring diagrams, and ASSUMING there is a standard, the pairs should be 3&9, 7&1, 2&8, so in order to properly renumber leads I just need to figure out 2&8. I do not have an impedence meter, but do have an ohmmeter, so if I remove leads 5&11 from ground I can ohm them and figure which is 2 and which is 8, correct?

Split bolts is what was used, removed 1 already, its like they wrapped it with black tar bubble gum, then electrical tape, the tape was easy enough to remove, the tar gum was royal pia. Don't think I have the tools to do a compression fitting.
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  #32  
Old 06-03-2019, 08:14:46 PM
Zephyr7 Zephyr7 is online now
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Default Re: Kohler 100KW Generator 100ROZ71

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Originally Posted by dalmatiangirl61 View Post
I do not have an impedence meter, but do have an ohmmeter, so if I remove leads 5&11 from ground I can ohm them and figure which is 2 and which is 8, correct?

Split bolts is what was used, removed 1 already, its like they wrapped it with black tar bubble gum, then electrical tape, the tape was easy enough to remove, the tar gum was royal pia. Don't think I have the tools to do a compression fitting.

Regular ohm meters usually can't read low enough resistance values reliably enough to be useful here. You can check continuity as you mention, but you probably won't be able to determine if you're seeing one winding or two in series with just an ohmmeter, especially if you're not using a 4-wire ohmmeter.

The tar-like stuff was probably butyl rubber splice tape. This is a self-amalgamating tape (a fancy way to say it sticks to itself and bonds into a solid mass) commonly used for insulating splices. It's actually the "right" way to insulate a splice in heavy wire if you're using tape and not a newer method like heat (or cold) shrink tubing. I HIGHLY recommend using shrink tubing instead whenever possible!

I'm not so sure there is a standard for generator winding numbering, but I'd go with the kohler drawing I posted which should be right for your particular genset.

Bill

---------- Post added at 08:14:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:11:04 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanman View Post
Well... If a 200:5 CT is metering just one of two paralleled lines, and you replace it with a 400:5 CT and run both lines through it instead... I can't see the result being any different...
You're probably right. By using two wires in the 400A CT, you're effectively multiplying the output by two compared to if you put the 400A CT on only one wire. A 200:5 CT on one of the two wires should read the same (relative to the 5A full scale output of the CT) as a 400:5 CT reading both of the two wires.

It's no different than passing the wire through the CT twice to double the sensitivity, which would make a 400:5 CT act like a 200:5 CT without the doubled winding.

Bill
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  #33  
Old 06-03-2019, 08:38:25 PM
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Default Re: Kohler 100KW Generator 100ROZ71

And don't forget the Varnish Cambric. Is that what that stuff was called? It goes on after the rubber tape and before the Scotch 33.
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  #34  
Old 06-04-2019, 12:04:54 AM
Zephyr7 Zephyr7 is online now
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Default Re: Kohler 100KW Generator 100ROZ71

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanman View Post
And don't forget the Varnish Cambric. Is that what that stuff was called? It goes on after the rubber tape and before the Scotch 33.
I think that was the old laquer-impregnated fabric insulation. Pretty much only seen on ye olde electrical equipment of yesteryear.

Bill
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Old 06-14-2019, 12:18:42 AM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Kohler 100KW Generator 100ROZ71

The turbo nozzle adapter thingy is almost finished, just need to find a nice swept elbow to complete it. The OD of the pipe I started with was just a tad too small, so found another piece and machined it so it was a press fit, then did final machining to get it to fit right, came out pretty nice I think. Ok, the welded nuts could have been better done, but its good enough.
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  #36  
Old 06-14-2019, 12:19:55 AM
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Default Re: Kohler 100KW Generator 100ROZ71

And installed
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Old 06-14-2019, 11:41:24 AM
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Default Re: Kohler 100KW Generator 100ROZ71

You might want to round over the edge where the inner taper changes to the unmachined pipe surface. Any abrupt changes in the surface like that can make for strange turbulent airflow. I don't know how critical that is, but I've only ever seen smoothly curved surfaces in those areas.

For a swept 90 pipe fitting, try a mechanical supply house that sells to steam system contractors. I've seen those guys use the wider radius fittings before.

Also, be SURE to use locking hardware on those fasteners! Split lockwashers are probably OK. I'd use at least grade 5 hardware too due to the high thermal cycling there. Turbos get HOT. You definitely do not want those fasteners coming loose while the unit is in operation!

Bill

Last edited by Zephyr7; 06-14-2019 at 12:36:15 PM. Reason: Locknuts!
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Old 09-18-2019, 05:11:40 PM
nothingbutdarts nothingbutdarts is offline
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Default Re: Kohler 100KW Generator 100ROZ71

When is the start up date on this beast???
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:37:38 PM
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Default Re: Kohler 100KW Generator 100ROZ71

I dunno, but I wish I could be there for a DieselSmoke Party in Kris's driveway... it's a strange enjoyment of mine to be standing around when a long-silent engine wakes up... something about the belch of smokey fire, raining of dirty, rusty debris of the first few power strokes, and the roar of a rudely-awoken iron giant really gets my goat...
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