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Fordson F Clutch


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  #1  
Old 07-24-2017, 09:41:18 AM
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Default Fordson F Clutch

Well, in two weeks the show will be history and i just got the ol F running again yesterday. The clutch will absolutely not disengage still, a problem i had previous and never addressed it, this will be the third time split. I read a past post from Ed about peening the plates, i tried that last time but didn't quite get it evidently. I have two clutch assemblys to work with, maybe i didn't get the plates polished up enough?
Also drove it a lil yesterday, and WOW does it howl! Full of oil, didn't remember it being that loud some 20 years ago.
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Old 07-24-2017, 08:59:20 PM
Ed Bezanson Ed Bezanson is offline
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Default Re: Fordson F clutch

Russ Sorry to hear about your clutch problems which are pretty much normal on a Fordson. The Golf Course Tractor I finished in the spring is also difficult to shift even though I took great pains to fix all the known problems. I also orbital sanded each side of each disc and smoothed the wear notches in the drive lugs. I also peened each driven plate to a nice curve. I have done all this on other Fordson's with great results so have to ponder the issue further.

Question for Butch or Steve etc. ???? Is it possible the brake plates are worn so they do not stop the gear rotation upon pushing the pedal all the way down???? I recently ran across an old article that someone mentioned removing one driven plate from the stack to give more room for the others to free up easier when pedal is pushed down. It also said there didn't seem to have any problems with pulling power. Since most of our restorations will never be used in heavy work applications I wonder if this could be the answer we have been searching for, for 100 years. What do the experts have to say on this issue. Ed B
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Old 07-24-2017, 10:34:26 PM
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Default Re: Fordson F clutch

Many years back when we first started collecting, one of the first purchases we made was some English Fordsons. Along with them came a custom built block that the owner devised. His instructions were simple and effective, just depress the clutch and place that block between the axle and the pedal before starting. Leave it there while you let the tractor warm up, 10 -15 minutes. By then the clutch will release ok for the rest of your work day. It always worked and as he farmed with them for decades, I guess he got along that way well enough.
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Old 07-25-2017, 08:56:46 AM
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Default Re: Fordson F clutch

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Originally Posted by Ed Bezanson View Post
Russ Sorry to hear about your clutch problems which are pretty much normal on a Fordson. The Golf Course Tractor I finished in the spring is also difficult to shift even though I took great pains to fix all the known problems. I also orbital sanded each side of each disc and smoothed the wear notches in the drive lugs. I also peened each driven plate to a nice curve. I have done all this on other Fordson's with great results so have to ponder the issue further.

Question for Butch or Steve etc. ???? Is it possible the brake plates are worn so they do not stop the gear rotation upon pushing the pedal all the way down???? I recently ran across an old article that someone mentioned removing one driven plate from the stack to give more room for the others to free up easier when pedal is pushed down. It also said there didn't seem to have any problems with pulling power. Since most of our restorations will never be used in heavy work applications I wonder if this could be the answer we have been searching for, for 100 years. What do the experts have to say on this issue. Ed B
That is something i hadn't thought about yet, although i did think about shorter springs the second time i had it apart.
One thing, i had a piece of wood that would fit from the clutch pedal to under the upper fender bracket to hold the clutch pedal down and it didn't make any difference, but i forgot it was there when i was going to move the tractor out of gear with a chain and it would not move like the brake was full on.
It is fairly easy to split save the oil draining, i will probably do some experimenting. Its running at least now, so worst case it could be static at the show.
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Old 07-25-2017, 11:31:15 AM
Steve Welker Steve Welker is offline
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Default Re: Fordson F clutch

Russ,
The Fordson clutch can be one of the most frustrating parts of the tractor. A poor clutch can make a good running tractor into a static display piece real quick! Here are a couple tips/tricks that I found work out pretty good to make a clutch function properly.

1. When rebuilding a clutch, I've found that giving the driven discs a 'bow', not a 'dish' works better. When you 'dish' a clutch disc it still contacts the adjacent disc with a circle when disengaged. A bow in the disc only ends up contacting on 2 edges when disengaged. Smaller surface contact makes it slip easier when disengaged.

2. Be careful not to bow the driven discs too far. Too much bow acts like additional pre-load in the springs and makes the clutch harder to push all the way in. If you can't fully press the clutch pedal in, it gets impossible to disengage it.

3. Don't forget to clean up notches on drive dogs (flywheel bolts) and also the driven dogs. The notches in the Drive Dogs are easy to see, but many people overlook the driven dogs in the clutch housing. These driven dogs are much harder to clean up, a small file and/or Dremel tool seem to work best. Not smoothing out the notches can make a clutch work horrible.

4. Check out the throwout bearing plate. If the bronze 'horseshoe' bearing plate is worn thin, it can effect how far the clutch is being disengaged. This is worse on tractors with a brake, as the brake ends up coming on too early. You can compensate for wear by rotating the clutch cam one or 2 spline notches on the clutch pedal shaft. This requires removing the dash, but is still easier than splitting the tractor. A proper clutch pedal spline adjustment should have the pedal sit almost horizontal.

5. Loosen up the brake! Personally I do not like the brake on Fordsons. Up thru the end of 1922 Fordsons did not have a brake. I have found these early tractors have clutches that work much better. If the brake is adjusted too tight, your throw-out bearing plate never moves far enough forward to fully disengaged the clutch. I back off the adjusting screw as far as possible to put as little pressure as possible on the brake, and all on the clutch. The brake can be adjusted thru the pulley/footpeg hole without splitting the tractor. In my opinion, I'd rather have the clutch fully disengage and have it coast to a stop, than have the brake partially on and the clutch continue to drive the tractor forward!

6. Removing a disc. If you do not plan to use your Fordson for heavy drawbar or belt work, removing a disc is a way to get an easier pushing clutch that disengages better. I recommend removing a driver disc, this way you do not end up with a driver contacting the outer housing. Lighter pressure springs will work also. In fact early Fordsons used lighter springs, but experienced slipping problems and Ford upped the spring pressure. I do not have the spring force numbers in front of me, nor the year the change was made.

If you follow all of these tips, your Fordson clutch can be made to work good. I have a 1920 that my son could drive at age 7, and shift without grinding gears. Sometimes you follow all the steps, and it can be still hard to get into gear, but it stops fine once in gear and the clutch is pushed in. A little driving tip is to always shift into 1st initially while the tractor is idled down, then with the clutch still in, go to what gear you want. They all seem to go into first easier, then once in gear the clutch discs brake loose, making it easy to go into another gear. Most Fordsons will behave this way, hard to initially shift into gear, but stop fine. If the tractor does not stop when the clutch pedal is fully depressed, there are serious problems with the clutch system.

Hope this Helps!
-Steve
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Old 07-25-2017, 03:24:22 PM
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Default Re: Fordson F clutch

I believe mine is a 26 model, i thought maybe it had a brake so first i'll pull the belt pulley assy. off tonight and check on backing that off to see if that does it before i split it. Does a person have to remove the rear wheel to remove the belt pulley? I'm at work right now, just curious, making plans for tonights' attack. It sure seems to me like the brake comes on really hard with no clutch, i can about kill it in low pushing on the pedal.
If not that, i'll split it anyway, iv'e sure got a better plan and more knowledge than i had last time thanks to you guys.
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Old 07-25-2017, 03:55:35 PM
Steve Welker Steve Welker is offline
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Default Re: Fordson F clutch

Russ,
If it is a 1926, it will have a brake. If the engine dies down hard in gear when you apply the clutch, the brake is definitely coming on too hard. Sometimes when in 2nd or 3rd gear, if applying the clutch throws you forward, brake is definitely coming on too hard. A bad clutch with properly adjusted brake , the tractor just continues to move forward at same speed and engine does not die down. When backing off the brake, you want additional clearance between square headed set screw and the brake hook. I usually back mine way off, with a lot of clearance.

Some aftermarket shift-able pulleys will come out without removing the wheel. The factory Fordson constant run pulleys require the wheel to move a little. About an 1 1/2". It has to do with the shape of the cast pulley housing that extends into the rear end. If you just remove the wheel cone and let the wheel rock on the axle shaft, you can move the wheel enough to get the pulley out.

My dad has a Fordson that the farmer cut a notch in the wheel to remove the pulley. Just drive until the notch lines up, and the pulley comes right out. Slick but crude!

-Steve
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Old 07-25-2017, 10:09:24 PM
Ed Bezanson Ed Bezanson is offline
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Default Re: Fordson F clutch

Steve Your knowledge just blows me away time after time. I have never given the inner faces a thought till now. I always thought the brake stopped the gears so it would go into gear easier. You seem to say that is not the case. Moving the splined finger up a few splines is interesting also. Leaving out a disc is also interesting I may just try on one of my tractors.
All in all we keep learning every day. Thank you very much for your knowledgeable answers. Have you ever thought about writing a book on all this stuff. Maybe just a simple pamphlet covering all these tips. Ed B
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Old 07-25-2017, 10:45:52 PM
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Default Re: Fordson F clutch

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Originally Posted by Russ Hamm View Post
Does a person have to remove the rear wheel to remove the belt pulley? :
I had to remove the wheel from my '27 F to remove the belt pulley, however it was very close to coming out with the wheel on. About 1/2-3/4" more room and I would have been home free... You may get lucky?
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:41:26 AM
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Default Re: Fordson F clutch

Last night when i got home i pulled the belt pulley and backed the brake completely off, the rear wheel moved, no problem. Started the ol guy up and it still wouldn't release. I got to looking at things, and as Steve mentioned the pedal had to be depressed darn near all the way to the belt pulley so i checked the clearance between the horseshoe release and the clutch, seemed a little excessive. I thought about the clutch brakes we put on at work on trucks, man, if i only had one of those in a smaller form. I remembered seeing a split machine washer in the shed i bought many yars ago and never used, fought that in there between the brass release fork and the clutch..................
Started it up, pushed down on the pedal, and.........IT WENT INTO REVERSE!!!
Thinking it was a fluke, i went through all the gears and released/ engaged it.
IT LIVES!!!
As sat there on the seat in the dark with just my flashlight on, i thought the beller of the exhaust was being replaced with another noise.
Kinda sounded like........a brass band?
I thought i saw Robert Preston in a straw skimmer with 76 trombones and 110 coronets close at hand, moving through the shadows in the edge of the yard. I felt paper confetti on my face, might have been just gnats, dunno, might have been oil spatterings from the ol Fordson, sure couldn't have been mosquitos for the momentary puffs of smoke.

NOW, i think i can just pull the dash and figure out some more permanent fix than the split washer, or may tack weld that split for this show. I would much rather remove that washer, actually. Must be that i actually got the clutch repaired years ago but needed a thicker/newer brass horseshoe so it would release, PLUS i needed to back off the brake some for sure although the brake actually works well backed off with the shim in.
Anyways, this frustrated mechanic will now say that the Fordson clutch is actually a workable design, but as Steve and Ed said, you NEED to check out everything thoroughly and you won't be dissapointed.
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:58:34 AM
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Default Re: Fordson F clutch

Glad to hear you resolved the problem! I saved this thread as there is some great information I will be referring to here. I have a minor disengagement issue with mine. I will be splitting mine this fall to replace a broken 2nd gear tooth which I'm sure was caused by people not waiting for the clutch to free up before jamming into gear.
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Old 07-26-2017, 10:13:26 AM
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Default Re: Fordson F clutch

I also printed off Steve's thorouh explanation yesterday before i went home so i could study it this weekend when i split the tractor, may not have to do that now but others may ask. The check is in the mail, Steve.
Looking for 140 gear oil today, that oil in the rear looked a little thin to me, may be we can quiet down the howl a little now, i hope.
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Old 07-26-2017, 12:47:59 PM
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Default Re: Fordson F Clutch

Russ,
Glad you figured it out. I've seen Fordsons that had a Bronze washer braised onto the horseshoe to build up an excessively worn one. If you horseshoe does not look too bad, you may be able to just adjust the pedal up by moving the cam on the pedal splines. Not a hard job, but is a little bit of a pain as you can not see which spline you are putting it on. Turns into a trial and error method that gets old quick after lifting the dash on and off a few times. Hard to explain but you will see what I mean when you tackle this problem.

One thing I did not mention is the Brake setting dimension. Ford called for 1/8" to 3/16" gap at the set screw head when the throw-out horseshoe is contacting the clutch. I usually set mine much wider than this, at about 3/8"

Ed,
Thanks for the compliments. My Fordson knowledge and Russ' check may just buy me a penny candy! This knowledge comes from 30+ year's of constant tinkering with these tractors and absorbing as much as possible from older Fordson mechanics. Many of these guys are gone, but luckily I listened as a young snot brat many years ago. Actually I've been working for a few years on putting together a book, still years away, but I've got a good start. The part I have a good start on is identifying all the variations of each individual part, and when and why they were changed during production. I do want to include a chapter or 2 with some basic tips for the Fordson 'problem' areas like the clutch, vaporizers, and ignition.

As for the brake stopping the trans gears, that is partially true. When the tractor is allready in gear, the brake will stop all motion in the trans. But when starting out in neutral, the brake only stops the output gear side of the trans. The input gear continues to turn until the clutch fully disengages and the friction of the thow-out horseshoe stops the clutch and input gears of the trans. It is designed this way with the brake on the output side of the trans so it still works even if the trans is in neutral. But with this design, the brake does not help to shift it initially.

Many guys miss the polishing the driven dogs in the clutch housing. I attached a picture of before and after on the last clutch I did. Also forgot to mention to count your clutch discs. Most all Fordsons had 17 discs from the factory (19 on very early ones before about May of 1918) I have found extra discs in clutches, most likely added by Shade Tree mechanics to try to eliminate a slipping clutch. I also have found springs shimmed with washers for more pressure, but this is not a good fix, and can lead to the springs being fully compressed before the clutch releases.

While a Fordson multi-disc wet clutch may seem like a odd design, it is actually a pretty robust, advanced design compared to what other tractors were using in 1917 when it was first used. Recently at work our maintenance man had a lathe that would not work in reverse. He tore it apart and removed the forward-reverse clutch, but what he found baffled him as to how it works and what was wrong, so he brought it to me to get my opinion. It was a multi-disc wet clutch with every other disc having internal or external notches, just Like a Fordson! I helped him rebuild it and it now works like a new one!

-Steve
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Old 07-26-2017, 02:29:42 PM
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Default Re: Fordson F Clutch

I'm checking with our mobil dealer right now on 600w oil, by the looks of it on the internet this is some expensive stuff. But, whattaya gonna do?
I came across an article about homemade 600w, it involves mixing STP, 90w and fiber wheel bearing grease. This guy says he mixes it with a mixer. Well, i may have to find a mixer at the second hand store.
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Old 07-26-2017, 04:45:50 PM
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Default Re: Fordson F Clutch

I've mixed 80/90 gear oil with some John Deere "corn head" grease. You can mix it as thick as you want and doesn't seem to separate.
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Old 07-28-2017, 08:48:59 AM
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Default Re: Fordson F Clutch

Some pictures. The tractor with most of the paint is not running, the other one is what i'm working on. They will both make it to the show, hopefully.
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Old 07-28-2017, 09:25:01 AM
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Default Re: Fordson F Clutch

I bought a rear half years ago that had the pair of fenders on it for my tractor. It was upside down in a tree row, so the fenders needed some work. I pulled this unit out of the trees last night and it actually had a better clutch horseshoe release on it, plus i needed to take off the drawbar extension.
I have been collecting some wheels over the years, seems like i only get one side as pictured on the rear half from the treerow. Seems like that would slide sideways some, wouldn't it? Under certain conditions, maybe. Anyway, years ago this rear half also yielded a clutch and a head from one of the buildings on the abandoned farmstead.
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Old 07-28-2017, 09:28:35 AM
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Default Re: Fordson F Clutch

Missed the pictures.
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Old 07-28-2017, 09:44:45 AM
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Default Re: Fordson F Clutch

Nice!

The pic of that back half just gave me a terrible idea and I just may have the pieces kickin around to do it... Sure looks like a 6V53 Detroit diesel would bolt up easy
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Old 07-28-2017, 10:18:12 AM
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Nice!

The pic of that back half just gave me a terrible idea and I just may have the pieces kickin around to do it... Sure looks like a 6V53 Detroit diesel would bolt up easy
Well........that would keep the front end down in many conditions.
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