Steam Engines
[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Library] - [Photo Gallery] - [Groups] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Links] - [Books] - [Sponsors] -

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® Old Iron and Tractor Community > Steam Stationary Engines, Traction Engines, Steam Boats
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Steam Stationary Engines, Traction Engines, Steam Boats Antique steam engines, their boilers, pumps, gauges, whistles and other related things that make them run.

Steam Stationary Engines, Traction Engines, Steam Boats

40 Gaar Scott Restoration


this thread has 284 replies and has been viewed 51599 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 01-27-2009, 09:57:20 PM
Peter Peter is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 2,442
Thanks: 721
Thanked 1,082 Times in 496 Posts
Default Re: 40 Gaar Scott Restoration

What a treat to be able to watch a project like this. And see details of this legendary machine revealed. Wing sheets! Nice design. I would have expected brackets bolted to the boiler.

Can I ask a dumb question? What is that support/arm/bracket for that runs from crank shaft of engine to mid boiler. Circled in red? Distinctive looking but does it serve a useful purpose? Good idea?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	what_is_this.JPG
Views:	195
Size:	25.5 KB
ID:	47518  
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #32  
Old 01-27-2009, 10:03:48 PM
Mike McKnight Mike McKnight is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Mason, Tennessee USA
Posts: 6,385
Thanks: 6,909
Thanked 6,282 Times in 2,327 Posts
Default Re: 40 Gaar Scott Restoration

Peter, that serves as:
a) brace/support for the crankshaft and
b) another bearing
Mike
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 01-27-2009, 10:06:35 PM
GaarScott GaarScott is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zimmerman, Minnesota
Posts: 2,042
Thanks: 3,032
Thanked 1,965 Times in 600 Posts
Default Re: 40 Gaar Scott Restoration

Peter,

That bracket, known as the A-bracket, at least that is what I've been told, supports the outboard bearing of the clutch assembly. This takes most of the stress off of the crankshaft. It is attached from the intermediate gear stub shaft and also, as you see in your photo, attaches to a stub shaft further up the boiler. What is even more interesting is, this bracket isn't babbited in until you have the boiler under pressure. This way all of the expansion of the various parts under heat is taken in. The crankshaft doesn't roll over so easy on these engines when they are cold. But roll over quite easily when under steam!

I've been told that if you don't babbit in the A-bracket as I have described, the motor will seize up or tear the babbit out of the clutch assembly as it is out in the field. Anyway, that is what I've been told.

I hope this answers your question for you. Does anyone else have anything to offer on this? What say you Mike?

Lawrence
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to GaarScott For This Post:
  #34  
Old 01-27-2009, 10:08:36 PM
Peter Peter is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 2,442
Thanks: 721
Thanked 1,082 Times in 496 Posts
Default Re: 40 Gaar Scott Restoration

Thanks Mike, I knew you would know. But... seems odd. I could understand or accept it better if it connected the crank to the intermediate. Thats a log hung of iron at a much cooler temp than the boiler. its an extra bearing but free to swing in a 4 or 5 foot arc. Does that design make sense to you?

One more edit: If that support was bent so it connect the crank to the intermediate and then anchored to mid boiler, that would seem somewhat rigid- uneven expansion and all. Or a triangle that connects the crank to the intermediate and then the differential, 3 points, 3 bearings. Leave the boiler out of it?

Fourth and final edit: Now thank you Lawrence who was typing same time as me -
I would sure appreciate a photo of that bracket some time, which I now assume has 3 connection points?

Last edited by Peter; 01-27-2009 at 10:38:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 01-27-2009, 10:47:58 PM
Mike McKnight Mike McKnight is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Mason, Tennessee USA
Posts: 6,385
Thanks: 6,909
Thanked 6,282 Times in 2,327 Posts
Question Re: 40 Gaar Scott Restoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaarScott View Post
Peter,

It is attached from the intermediate gear stub shaft and also, as you see in your photo, attaches to a stub shaft further up the boiler.
Lawrence
Lawrence,
I can't quite see how it attaches to the intermediate gear stub shaft, and I've studied the pics that Jerred posted on his site. If you say it does, Im sure it does, as you've worked on it and I haven't. Do you have any pics you could post to show us how it does?

Gaar-Scott had quite a bit of trouble with their side-mount engines double cylinders breaking their crankshafts. I know of two surviving side-mount doubles that have either had their cranks replaced or repaired, off the top of my head. I think this was to try to add another bearing on and alleviate this problem. Don't have a clue if it worked or not, as I think I recall someone writing that they saw a lot of later Gaar doubles with broken cranks, also. I think if the middle of the crank would have been supported between the throws it would have helped out considerably, as the side mount engines were not. I can't say if the bigger, later doubles were or not? What about it, Lawrence? Does this one have a bearing in the middle of the crankshaft between the throws, or not?

Mike
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 01-27-2009, 11:18:12 PM
GaarScott GaarScott is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zimmerman, Minnesota
Posts: 2,042
Thanks: 3,032
Thanked 1,965 Times in 600 Posts
Default Re: 40 Gaar Scott Restoration

Mike, Peter,

I'll try my best to explain and show you photos. Not sure how many photos I'll be able to upload at this point. Anyway, the A-bracket, as I said, is attached to the intermediate stub shaft, which is directly in-line with the crank shaft. I suspect the long stretch of the A-bracket, unlike the short one on the 25hp engines, is to help support the extra hp that is developed by the DTC motor. Peter, you do have a point about the expansion...but as I stated, that is compensated by babbiting in the A-bracket when the engine is under steam. If this isn't done this way, then you have trouble.

Anyway, the photos show the anchoring as I have been trying to describe. Mike, in one of the photos my hand is on the intermediate bearing that supports the crank between the main bearings and the throws. This, I believe, corrected the problem of the crankshafts that had broken on earlier models. I'm not sure if the 25hp DRM Gaar's have the same intermediate bearing as this 40hp motor does. Maybe some of your 25hp Gaar owners can answer this one for us?

I hope this better explains things for everyone.

Lawrence
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 01-27-2009, 11:31:44 PM
Craig A's Avatar
Craig A Craig A is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 15,127
Thanks: 15,658
Thanked 19,742 Times in 5,796 Posts
Images: 18
Default Re: 40 Gaar Scott Restoration

Here are Lawrence's photos.......
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	40hp GaarScott - A-bracket.jpg
Views:	190
Size:	95.4 KB
ID:	47535   Click image for larger version

Name:	40hp GaarScott - A-bracket attachment.jpg
Views:	229
Size:	89.7 KB
ID:	47536   Click image for larger version

Name:	40hp GaarScott - A-bracket attachment #2 photo.jpg
Views:	231
Size:	120.7 KB
ID:	47537   Click image for larger version

Name:	40hp GaarScott - Intermediat Crank Bearing.jpg
Views:	209
Size:	85.5 KB
ID:	47538  

Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Craig A For This Post:
  #38  
Old 01-27-2009, 11:36:34 PM
Mike McKnight Mike McKnight is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Mason, Tennessee USA
Posts: 6,385
Thanks: 6,909
Thanked 6,282 Times in 2,327 Posts
Thumbs up Re: 40 Gaar Scott Restoration

Much clearer, now! The photo with the fellow holding up the "A" bracket shows how it can attach to both the crank and the stub shaft...and Lawrence, I can clearly see the middle bearing, even though your big hand is in the way!

From the pics I can see of the gearing, looks like the teeth are in pretty good shape, yet. Either the pictures don't show 'em clearly, or either the engine suffered from serious neglect for the bores of the gears to be as worn as you say they are and the teeth to still be decent.
Darn shame all these engines we love so well were used, abused, and left for dead!

Mike
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 01-27-2009, 11:45:24 PM
Peter Peter is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Massachusetts USA
Posts: 2,442
Thanks: 721
Thanked 1,082 Times in 496 Posts
Default Re: 40 Gaar Scott Restoration

Excellent photos === 1000 words every time.

I also see there is a center bearing on the crank, looking at an old thread.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 01-27-2009, 11:55:24 PM
GaarScott GaarScott is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zimmerman, Minnesota
Posts: 2,042
Thanks: 3,032
Thanked 1,965 Times in 600 Posts
Default Re: 40 Gaar Scott Restoration

Mike,

Sadly, not all of the gearing looks as good as does the ring gear on the differential or the intermediate gear teeth. The bevel gears are folded back in the direction of plowing mode. Almost looks like they made a lot of left hand turns. I don't recall the inside (bevel gear supported by the upper cannon bearing bearing) being as worn or bent back as the outer bevel gear (the bevel gear attached to the left hand pinion. Both left and right hand pinions are severly worn and bent back in the direction of plowin motion. The bull gears are also badly worn and laid back. The bore on the intermediate gear is badly scored and the stub shaft that the intermediate gear rode on is badly worn. I will try and post a picture of the stub shaft to show what I'm talking about.

We discussed the condition of the gearing...like you said, what you can see, the gearing looks really nice. There is speculation that maybe one or two gears had possibly been replaced earlier in its life. Jerred does have a set of bull gears from another engine. The bull gears are in decent enough shape, but the inside of the teeth have been worn/busted out. I speculate that either the hubs from which these gears came from were badly worn and the wheels leaned in or whomever didn't have proper clearance between the flanged inside edge of the pinions and the bull gears and the rubbing caused the damage to the bull gears.

I will get some photos of the bull gears that Jerred is going to use for replacements. Lange's Machine Shop in Hector, Minnesota is going to do the build up on the crank pinion gear, which is also badly worn. At the same time, he is going to repair the broken out piece in the A-bracket and fix the inside tips on the bull gears. They plan to use braze in bronze, as they say it will be as strong if not stronger then the cast steel that was used originally.

Does this answer your questions Mike?

Lawrence
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to GaarScott For This Post:
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump

Similar Threads Chosen at Random
Thread Thread Starter F o r u m Replies Last Post
Gaar-Scott experts??? G Willikers Steam Stationary Engines, Traction Engines, Steam Boats 64 09-19-2015 09:05:16 AM
22 hp Gaar Scott Molinegb Steam Stationary Engines, Traction Engines, Steam Boats 33 01-16-2015 10:29:18 AM
Gaar Scott steely Steam Stationary Engines, Traction Engines, Steam Boats 6 06-12-2011 12:19:59 PM
40 Hp Gaar Scott Casemaker Steam Stationary Engines, Traction Engines, Steam Boats 26 07-08-2009 09:30:18 AM
Gaar Scott Shaving Mug 20 Reeves Highwheeler eBayŠ Auction Discussion 10 10-29-2008 11:35:56 PM


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:58:10 AM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2016 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277