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1965 Kohler 6.5R22 to be Placed into Service


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  #1  
Old 06-23-2018, 06:53:57 PM
Vanman Vanman is offline
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Default 1965 Kohler 6.5R22 to be Placed into Service

I've had this set for a long time, and have a thread on it here already, but this is going to be different. This set will be installed under the floor of my Crown bus, and will provide auxiliary heat as well as power. This is the first time I actually have a specific end use in mind for one of my sets, so this thread will focus specifically on those preparations.

Here's the original thread:

https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=133926

Today I started off briefly running it on ether, just to see that it still fires up, which it did instantly, and sounded great.

Then I ran a compression test:
#1 122 lbs
#2 124 lbs
#3 126 lbs
#4 121 lbs

The manual specifies 110 lbs compression, so I'm guessing that there's carbon build up. So I guess I should pull the head and have a look.

The manual states that the compression ratio is only 6.5 : 1, and I'm going to be running propane as primary fuel with premium gasoline as an emergency backup fuel, so I want to mill the head some to get the compression up and the fuel consumption down. When I get to that point the decision will have to be made: How much?

For now I loosely re-installed the plugs and wires.

I then drained the coolant, which was rusty brown. I had thought I had changed it at some point after getting it home, but I'm scatterbrained and evidently did not. Other than a few test runs I've never really used the set.

I drained the oil which was clean but with sludge. When I got it it had milky oil, and I thought I had all of the sludge rinsed out, but obviously not. I'm going to pull the oil base anyway to have a look see at the bearings, so everything down there will get thoroughly cleaned now.

Here are some photos in the current condition.
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Old 06-23-2018, 11:15:04 PM
dkamp dkamp is offline
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Default Re: 1965 Kohler 6.5R22 to be placed into Service

Looks identical to mine, Keith!
I wouldn't mill the head... pull the head, and flush the block yes... rebuild the water pump, yes... scrub out the chambers and piston tops, yes, pull, wire brush, lap the valves, test each of the valve springs yes... but mill it... NO...
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Old 06-24-2018, 09:13:38 AM
Bent Trigger Bent Trigger is offline
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Default Re: 1965 Kohler 6.5R22 to be Placed into Service

Boy, does that look familiar! Good luck Keith, good you have a plan!
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Old 06-24-2018, 02:57:15 PM
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Default Re: 1965 Kohler 6.5R22 to be Placed into Service

BTW Keith-

There's another way to capture exhaust heat... AND silence the engine.

Make a muffler... vertically-oriented can. Wrap the conventional manifold in thermal fiber tape, hten plumb it to your exhaust can. make the incoming exhaust go down the center of the can, and stop about 6" from the bottom. Put 12" of water in the bottom of the can (submerge the exhaust by 6"). Use an exit tube that dips down into the can to limit water level to 6". Any excess water gets forced out the overflow, through a P-trap, so that exhaust cannot flow into the water path.

Now, this will create 6" W.C. backpressure on your exhaust, so your fuel mixture will lean accordingly (It'll drop your vacuum by that much at start-up... but once running, will not be noticeable).

Pipe from the top of the can, out to your exhaust exit.

As exhaust flows through the water, it will get very, very hot... very fast... so use an auxiliary water pump off the engine to push cool water INTO the can. Make the loop fairly short... to a heat exchanger (heat domestic water first, then the bus cabin baseboards and floor heat).

The advantage here, is that you won't have a concern with exhaust system overheat... the heat extraction system will cause the system to get very hot, but nothing will crack or burn up. A liquid cooled exhaust manifold MUST MUST MUST be water-jacketed and cooled at ALL TIMES... if not, it will warp, fracture internally, and leak coolant into exhaust... hence... become scrap iron.
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Old 06-24-2018, 10:59:15 PM
Vanman Vanman is offline
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Default Re: 1965 Kohler 6.5R22 to be Placed into Service

Interesting idea! Sort of a marine-ish exhaust, but capturing and recirculating the water. Still aways away from this stage though.

Not much to report today, just degreased the outside so it'll be nicer to work on. Covered up the mag to keep it dry, and avoided the generator and controller. Looks a lot better now.
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Old 06-25-2018, 08:05:36 PM
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Default Re: 1965 Kohler 6.5R22 to be Placed into Service

Don't have a lot to add but am concerned about carbon monoxide so using a water heating system seems the safest bet. I'll be following this to see how it goes for you. Good luck and have fun.
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Old 06-26-2018, 02:56:12 PM
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Default Re: 1965 Kohler 6.5R22 to be Placed into Service

Here's some of yesterday's progress. All of the fasteners came out with relative ease. None broken or stripped.

Not really a whole lot of carbon, but will clean it up and see about cc-ing the head. Maybe it's already been milled a bit. I also noticed it has remnants of gold instead of blue, so evidently not original to the set. Want to check it and the block for flatness.

The water pump seems to be in excellent condition, and I seem to recall the previous owner stating that it had been rebuilt. Looking through the weep hole the shaft looks pretty shiny still.

Factory gasoline / gaseous fuel carburetor, pretty cool. Might have to bush the throttle shaft but otherwise seems in good condition. I want to run propane with gasoline for backup.

Now I have to figure out how to get to the bottom end. I have a shop crane to lift the engine and generator off of the oil base, maybe just lay it on it's side with some blocks of wood.
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Old 06-26-2018, 06:37:03 PM
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Default Re: 1965 Kohler 6.5R22 to be Placed into Service

The cylinders don't look too bad. Can still see a wee bit of cross hatch, and don't feel any ridge with my finger, just some carbon.

You can see where it sat for a long time, and some moisture got in, just a little surface rust.

It runs so well, and has good, even compression that I can't see any reason to pull the pistons.

What do you think?
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Last edited by Vanman; 06-26-2018 at 09:58:40 PM.
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Old 06-26-2018, 07:08:42 PM
Bent Trigger Bent Trigger is offline
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Default Re: 1965 Kohler 6.5R22 to be Placed into Service

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanman View Post
Factory gasoline / gaseous fuel carburetor, pretty cool. I want to run propane with gasoline for backup.

Now I have to figure out how to get to the bottom end. I have a shop crane to lift the engine and generator off of the oil base, maybe just lay it on it's side with some blocks of wood.
When you get the gaseous parts clean , can we get some pics and measurements? I've been wanting to make that part on the carb bottom.

I used 2x4s and they worked well. Once the gasket was loose I just rolled it onto the 2x4s, just be careful of the oil pump pick up. Or use a kid to do it for you! Just read the gennys still attached. Gonna need 3 kids!! You can be the supervisor! Chris
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Old 06-26-2018, 07:13:33 PM
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Default Re: 1965 Kohler 6.5R22 to be Placed into Service

Sure, no problem on photos and measurements on the carb parts.

I've removed all of the bolts between the engine and oil base except for a couple in the front. Then it occurred to me that they *might* have hidden a couple around the back end, requiring the removal of the generator. So I came inside to review the engine service manual, and this does appear to be the case per the diagrams. Dang it! I didn't want to remove the generator, but it clearly looks like there are a couple of bolts back there.

Last edited by Vanman; 06-26-2018 at 08:59:43 PM.
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Old 06-26-2018, 07:53:27 PM
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Default Re: 1965 Kohler 6.5R22 to be Placed into Service

Those cylinders look fine- I'd scrape the gunk off the ridge, but I wouldn't do anything more (not ream 'em!). I'd move the pistons to the top and wire brush 'em clean (won't take much)... and around the valves and valve heads too (before lifting 'em out to clean the stems, check valves, etc)

I WOULD flow water through that block, and bang a rod around the bottom of every place you can reach, and find ways to get to those you can't... get that block clean.

Then do same for the head... rod it out, scrub the chambers.

When done, you might find the compression pressure a wee bit lower, on account of more final volume with any deposits gone.

Clean the gunk out of the pan, and mebbie consider front and rear main seals with the pan gasket replacement... then put it back together...
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Old 06-26-2018, 08:22:13 PM
Vanman Vanman is offline
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Default Re: 1965 Kohler 6.5R22 to be Placed into Service

With do.

The passageways don't look as bad as I was expecting, but I'll do what I can to clean 'em out.

About that rear main seal. I had wanted to leave the generator attached, and I've since learned that the final two bolts are accessible from underneath. But the sludge I found under there convinced me that I should put in a new seal.

Now I'm stuck. I've got the four bolts out that hold the field frame to the fan housing, but I absolutely cannot get it to budge...
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Old 06-26-2018, 08:52:45 PM
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Default Re: 1965 Kohler 6.5R22 to be Placed into Service

I've always started on the bearing end when removing the gen.
Very little movement to break lose with bearing cage still attached.
I believe there also is a dowel pin or two in the front to line up the bolt holes.
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Old 06-26-2018, 09:36:37 PM
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Default Re: 1965 Kohler 6.5R22 to be Placed into Service

It worked! Gear puller on the end bell- gingerly, it's aluminum- combined with the hammer and block of wood got it.

Now I'm stuck again.

The hammer and block of wood on the through bolt trick is not working for removing the armature from the crank...
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Old 06-27-2018, 02:06:45 AM
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Default Re: 1965 Kohler 6.5R22 to be Placed into Service

A few more attempts were made at removing the armature, to no avail. I even tried a few good whacks with the 2 lb hammer and no wood. Bent the head of the through bolt a bit.

So I abandoned that for a while, and switched to trying to separate the engine from its oil base. I rigged the engine from the crane, leaving the oil base and its feet dangling an inch or so above the cart. I have not yet succeeded in separating these parts either. Gave it some taps with the block of wood and the hammer, but don't want to break the cast iron!
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Old 06-27-2018, 12:13:11 PM
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Default Re: 1965 Kohler 6.5R22 to be Placed into Service

Keith looks like you got quite the job ahead of you go back to my earlier posts on Armature removal and see if there's something there that might help you I ended up actually cracking my flywheel or cooling fan wheel just trying to get everything off eventually I had to wedge between the actual Armature and the crankshaft and apply a crapload of pressure to get that thing to pop off sliding the Armature out as far as you can away from the engine only gave me maybe one mmmm of movement so I couldn't wack that thing hard enough to get the Armature to pop off now after the Armature has been off it actually pops off by the book whenever I went back and worked on that engine also I don't think there's any screws directly in the back Edge there on that oil pan but once again if you look at my old pictures you should be able to see it whether there's bolts back there or not good luck my friend Chris
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Old 06-27-2018, 01:04:25 PM
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Default Re: 1965 Kohler 6.5R22 to be Placed into Service

Chris, I've already been cheating and looking at your thread.

That's where I found that there are two bolts at the back of the engine between the oil base and engine proper. I found them and removed them.

This isn't the first stuck armature for me. I have a little 600 watt set with a Wisconsin AA? That I have yet to get apart. It sits in a box in the garage. But I need the Kohler

Next I am thinking to turn the whole thing up on end, fill the hollow armature shaft with oil, find a shaft or rod or bolt that will just slip in, maybe use same paper as packing to make a better seal, then whack it with a hammer, breaking it free hydraulically.

I've used this trick with grease to remove the pilot bushing from a crankshaft before. Worked quite well!
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Old 06-27-2018, 01:44:23 PM
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Default Re: 1965 Kohler 6.5R22 to be Placed into Service

Instead of oil first down the hollow armature shaft, use some KROIL or other good penetrant, let it soak a day or two then try the oil hydraulic trick.
One way to clean the water jackets of rust that I have used several tmes is to pull the water pump and make up a steel plate to bolt up and seal the water pump hole. level the set and pour CLR or Zep tub, tile and rust stain remover into the water passages of the block to the TOP. This will take a few days but will dissolve all the rust left in the block. I would suggest removing and replacing the freeze plugs after. Rinse the block after. Same thing can be done with the head.
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Old 06-27-2018, 05:11:45 PM
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Default Re: 1965 Kohler 6.5R22 to be Placed into Service

Keith, the oil will just run out When I used the grease to try to pop mine, it just pushed out of the windings. Check the pics. I got it cleaned out but after running it at speed for a while the grease that was residual piled up on the inside of the housing. And it looks like your cooling fan is solid so the bars won't help. It is a taper with a key, so if you can get some PB in there while it is hanging from the crane and set it on some wood and use the weight of the engine and a heating gun, no matter how you do it it's gonna suck. Happy thoughts to you. Chris

I went back and looked at your posts. The cooling fan looks like aluminum so if you bend it you can probably straighten it back out. Something I did not try was to freeze the long bolt and with heat on the outside the differential might help if you try it by the book. Chris

Just thinking here about the swing arm bolts on the cycles I rebuild. I use an air chisel gun to drive those out when they a seized. If you have a large spring you can put that on the front of the crank and push it against the wall and use the air chisel with a pointed tool to rock the bolt, into the crank. The trick is to keep the motor loaded on the spring, so the crank can move in and out freely that 1mm. Can probably rent one from Advance Auto. Just a thought. Chris
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Old 06-27-2018, 11:55:24 PM
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Default Re: 1965 Kohler 6.5R22 to be Placed into Service

Well, it seems that, at least so far, I have caught a break.

I got a much bigger lever, found a couple of good leverage points, and easily started the oil base to separate from the engine.

It was still stuck at the back, and seemed springy, like something was still attached, not just a stuck gasket, so I didn't push it. A more thorough investigation found one more bolt, right in the center at the rear. I didn't see this in the diagrams or in Chris's photos oddly enough. With that bolt removed it came apart.

The sheets of sludge that sloughed off the bottom were absolutely disgusting. It really is true- ALL old engines should be cleaned out before being put back into service.

Then I rigged the whole thing up to be suspended from the armature, emptied an old can of WD-40 down the hole, tapped on the through bolt a couple more times and- voila!

After that I man handled the engine into an upside down position so that I can investigate the bottom end. Man these old Kohlers were really built like a brick dog house.
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