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Fuels and Alternative Fuels Materials or substances that can be used as a fuel, waste oils, vegetable oils or animal fats, which can be used alone, or blended with fossil fuels.

Fuels and Alternative Fuels

Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles


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  #1  
Old 05-08-2013, 02:18:32 AM
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Default Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

Detroit says it will ruin your engine. The EPA says it's safe. Farmers say it's better than foreign oil. Oil companies say it's more expensive than gasoline. But as Washington looks to compel refiners to blend more and more ethanol into gasoline, consumers are still left with the basic and critical question -- how much ethanol is safe to put in their cars?

Automakers warn the government's ethanol mandate could damage vehicles if it continues to grow. "We just feel that it is not safe for the consumer. It's not safe for their engines," said Charles Drevna, executive president of American Fuel & Petrochemical Manufacturers.

The questions about ethanol arise after Congress first mandated it in 2007. Ninety-six percent of gasoline sold in the U.S. is now 10 percent ethanol, a high-octane fuel derived from corn. But under that bill and rules favored by the Environmental Protection Agency, refiners are now being forced to blend up to 15 percent ethanol into gasoline sold at stations around the U.S.

The auto industry, though, says E-15 -- as the blend is known -- corrodes pumps, fuel lines and injectors. And manufacturers say they won't cover damages caused by the higher blend.
The American Automobile Association agrees.
"Ninety-five percent of today's cars are not suited for E-15 based on what people who make those cars say," said AAA CEO Robert Darbelnet.

The ethanol lobby claims automakers and refiners are overreacting.

"E-15 has been sold in this country for the past nine months with no issues whatsoever. This is a lot of hysteria that's being driven by the oil companies," said Bob Dinneen, head of the Renewable Fuels Association.

While there have been no issues reported so far, the new blend has only been sold in a handful of stations in the Midwest. But refiners are mandated to use 13.8 billion gallons ethanol this year requiring the 15 percent blend. The EPA says it is safe for cars built after 2001, but acknowledges it is inappropriate for boats and small motors, including lawnmowers and chainsaws.

Automakers advise new owners not to fill up on E-15 and say doing so may violate warranty terms, leaving customers to pay costly repair bills. Toyota and Lexus even placed warning labels on gas caps and owner's manual instructions caution not to use E-15.

"We think ethanol is a pretty good product, up to a point," said Drevna. "But when Congress mandates such massive quantities that we can't put into the fuel system, that the autos and the lawnmowers people and the marine manufacturers are saying 'We won't warranty, we won't put this in our engines, there is a problem'."

Ethanol supporters dispute that and claim studies back them up. Ethanol blends of 25 percent have been used for years in Brazil with no ill effects on the same cars sold in the U.S.
"We support what the EPA did because we know that E-15 is safe for the vehicles for which they have approved," said Dinneen."Let the marketplace decide. Let consumers that have a newer vehicle, that want to use E-15, give them the choice. If they want to use E-15 because it is lower cost, because it's domestically produced, because it's the only thing we have that's going to reduce greenhouse gases, then they ought to have that choice."

After a lengthy comment period, the EPA is expected to decide soon whether or not to relax the blend mandate. Some lawmakers are considering similar legislation should the EPA fail to do so. Right now, it is a lobbying war pitting farmers against oil refiners and automakers.

"Look, this is pretty simple," said Dinneen. "It's about a battle for the barrel. Ethanol, renewable fuels, have been phenomenally successful over the last several years, and we are now 10 percent of the U.S. motor fuel market. And the refiners are saying, 'no more'. They don't want to see E-15 succeed. I think the American public still understands the value in reducing our dependence on imported oil and seeing more domestic renewable fuels used."
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:11:00 AM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

May corn futures are at $6.756 per bushel and September futures are at $5.516.
Using corn at that price for making fuel is insane.
Just now I went surfing looking for unbiased FACTS.........I could find only one FACT "they" agree upon: E85 (different subject I know) has 25% less energy than a gallon of gasoline.
What I THINK are facts that are overlooked in the production of ethanol is that ALL of the inputs involved in raising a bushel of corn are not entered into the equation.
The production of ethanol is quickly becoming the new Industrial Complex in that there is such a huge investment in infrastructure and labor necessary to run it plus producers who have come to depend on ethanol to keep corn prices high that it will cause its own depression if the "system" is interrupted in any substantial way.
Is every gas station in the country going to be required to install yet MORE underground tanks and pumps to dispense yet another grade of fuel?
I think we all know the answer to that one.......
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:43:50 AM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

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Originally Posted by Craig A View Post

What I THINK are facts that are overlooked in the production of ethanol is that ALL of the inputs involved in raising a bushel of corn are not entered into the equation.

Is every gas station in the country going to be required to install yet MORE underground tanks and pumps to dispense yet another grade of fuel?
I think we all know the answer to that one.......
That, has always been my main (and often only) complaint about ethanol, is the cost of growing and processing the corn to make it with.

I hadn't thought of the gas station/tanks situation until you mentioned it there, but IF that ends up being the case, it could easily spell the end for even more small town privately owned stations that can't justify the cost of putting in another tank. Then you lose more independant stations and give the big corporations even more of a monopoly for controling the ever rising price of gas.

As far as using the E-15 though, I think everyone knows my views on it by now. Having routinely run the E-10 which some people on here keep claiming is actually Up To 27% alcohol, and occasionally running E-25 and a few Partial Tanks of E-85 mixed in with the E-10 or E-25, I doubt I will have Any Problems At All running E-15 If/When it becomes available locally.

But, I do agree, it should be the Consumers Choice, and NOT be Mandated by anyone.
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:13:34 PM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

why doesn't anyone talk about the millions of gallons of rain run off full of pesticides, herbicides, and fertilizers. we can breath dirty air, although not good, but we can not drink poison water. poison water is killing us where we live by DuPont dumping c-8 into our waterways and into our air through the smokestacks.
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:57:12 PM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Fielder View Post
why doesn't anyone talk about the millions of gallons of rain run off full of pesticides, herbicides, and fertilizers. we can breath dirty air, although not good, but we can not drink poison water. poison water is killing us where we live by DuPont dumping c-8 into our waterways and into our air through the smokestacks.
Why doesn't anyone talk about the millions of gallons of rain run off from CITIES full of pesticides, herbicides and fertilizers because Bob needs to have his lawn greener than Herb next door, or Katie hates the little red bugs that are on her flowers, or the local city pumps millions of gallons of RAW SEWAGE a day into the river because their treatment pumps broke due to improper maintenance, or....

I could go on, but the point is the farmer is the least of your problems. How many more millions of people would go hungry without modern farming techniques?

Frank W. (JR)
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:38:31 PM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

How many more millions of people would go hungry without modern farming techniques?





that's the exact point here. how many go hungry because of ethanol???

not one person on stak is against the farmer. this is a government mandate issue.
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:20:53 PM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

My understanding (could be wrong) is that there is one tank with ethanol, one with gasoline. Blended at the pump.
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:33:09 PM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

Yep boys let's do whatever we can to drive down the price paid to American Farmers for corn and send all the money we can to towelhead terrorist in the middle east.

$6.50 for corn paid to American Farmers who use machinery made in America to produce corn for fuel to be used by Americans, what a crazy idea. Let's just keep sending our money overseas instead.

Liberals just can't understand you can't keep a high living standard in a country that imports everything!
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:50:58 PM
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Question Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

How many years in a row can you plant corn on the same ground though ?

Don't they have to rotate crops once in a while ?

I'm not a farmer, so I don't know, but locally, I used to see the crops rotated routinely, and now it's mostly corn, year after year after year. If they keep doing that, how many years can they go before they don't get a crop at all after spending all the time and money to plant and cultivate it ?

And what does it do to the prices of everything else that the farmers quit planting but we still need ?

Where do we get the other crops from if all the farmers are growing is corn for ethanol ?

I will continue to burn Ethanol myself, whether it's E-10 or E-15 and occasionally E-25 makes no differnece to me, as long as it's cheaper than non-ethanol. But if the price of corn makes Ethanol more expensive, then I will go back to regular unleaded.
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Old 05-08-2013, 01:00:54 PM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

I am not sure it is ok to post copy written material, so I will cite sources. See UPI.com April 10, 2013, US News & World Report March 20, 2013 issue, Energy Tomorrow.org for details.

Due to fracking, shale extraction and other hi tech extraction methods, for the first time in 20 years, US oil production will exceed imports! Predictions are by 2014, US oil production will be several million barrels per day higher than imports. US oil reserves are the highest they have been in over 30 years!

As the tighter government mandated fuel economy and energy efficiency standards take effect, predictions are that the US will use less fossil fuel.

Right now, domestic oil and gas producers export to the world market.
Far east nations pay higher prices than the local market, so US produced fuels are sold overseas.

I am not sure that we need to take food and use it as fuel, when many people in the world do not have enough to eat.
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Old 05-09-2013, 07:02:48 PM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

Did you guys see where "Shell" is saying there Ethanol is made from cane sugar?
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:51:25 PM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

I've read on other forums that some guys swear by adding Marvel Mystery Oil to the gas.
I've used it mostly for cleaning up engines on my new purchases to loosen old crud so I can get rid of it at the first oil change.
But I've read about it too many times to not believe there is something to it and now use it in every fill.
At the shop I had a customer (still is a customer) who uses a DC Case on a regular basis on his farm.
He said that engine WILL NOT run right without it so.......
I guess it is indeed a "Mystery" but who am I to argue with success.......
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:03:08 PM
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

On the farm gas barrel we add cen-pe-co additive oil each time its filled. Never had any wear issues on the old stuff and my old truck before the one now had 330K miles on it before it was time to haul it in (1977 Dodge d 150 w/318). Bought it in '85 wrecked w/40k on it and drove it till '98 My 98 Dodge has 220K now and runs great and only needs 1/2 quart oil every 2000 miles. My uncle uses Marvel and has the same results, the two products are very similar.
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Old 05-12-2013, 12:53:41 AM
Alastair Geddes. Alastair Geddes. is offline
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

Does anyone know how much fuel/ oil is in reserves? say just your countries reserves? does anyone know how long that will last at current world consumption rate? country consumption rate?
Some of the Oil field engines that are posted on this site must have come from decomissioned wells or did they repower them with other engines? How many wells are now empty?
What would you do if you went to the pump and there was no fuel?
The world has spent considerable resources developing uses for fuel from lawn mowers to cars/ trucks / buses just look at how far tractors have come since say 1908 around the time when demand was just starting for the product.Demand now is strong in developed countries and growing in others like china / asia/ india as they industrialise what is going to be the next fuel source.Are biofuels a transition? to something new.
100 percent alcohol is used in race engines for circuit racing over here with no ill effects so any blend as long as car is tuned for it should be made to work by the car manufacturers by changing car engine components if need be, possibly the mandate imposed is a "suggestion" to the companies to do something along those lines.Possibly the country is importing oil as its own reserves are depleted and the government wants to balance out the supply side a bit.Who are the people who know what is happening with the reserves? would be good if they spoke up about the situation so everyone is not in the dark and or mad about it.
Will everyone be making there own "moonshine" to put in there cars cars from whatever they can ferment at home will be a question.....in years in come.
More importantly will there be conflict over supply or has that already started to happen... who gets oil who doesn't and for how long do they get it at what price.
Thats a big can of worms..... hopefully it hasn't come to that and won't come to that.
What are the options throw away 100 odd years of development / thinking on the motorcar and supporting industries and start from scratch? retrain everyone again. nuclear powered steam cars anyone? Selling attributes quite powerful but with added option of glow in the dark in the event of crashes....die slowly from steam burns and a dose of radiation poisoning on the side.
There must be better ways look to imagination / movies plug in a new power cell anyone? just how do we do it is the question that requires a solution that wont hurt the people or the planet.
For car manufactures to "fix" cars so they can run up to 100 percent ethanol/methanol is just a little item in the scheme of things to be done.
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Old 05-09-2013, 01:34:25 PM
Wayne 440 Wayne 440 is offline
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Default Re: Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles

The way I see it, the EPA is determined to get older vehicles off of the road at any cost. They mandate ULSD, knowing that it will reduce the life of older diesel injection pumps. They mandate enthanol additives to "gasoline", also knowing that the makers of older "gasoline" powered vehicles made no provision for that. Frankly, I see it as an intentional ploy to force purchase of newer vehicles.

So what does a resourceful person do? With this "gasoline" I have no idea. But the diesel guys simply buy ULSD, then add the needed lubricants to it so injection pumps last as they should. It is a pretty safe bet that the mix some of them use makes good old 1000ppm S diesel seem like Kool-Aid.
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