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Running Surplus 3-Phase Welders on Single-Phase Power


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  #1  
Old 11-09-2011, 09:03:42 PM
dkamp dkamp is offline
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Post Running Surplus 3-Phase Welders on Single-Phase Power

Hey Everybody-

If you're interested in getting a good welder, but you're on a low budget, used industrial-type 3-phase welders can be found for incredibly cheap prices.

Many people say that three-phase machines cannot be made to perform properly on single-phase power, but Peter Haas and I have found a technique that proves otherwise. I've been working with Millers, but I believe others will work just fine using similar technique.

I've documented the technique and method (no withheld secrets anywhere) and posted them freely, so check it out, and give them a try. If you run into difficulty, or would like to discuss it further, shoot me an Email, and I'll reply, or give you a call.

So far, I've done:

Miller CP-200 (MIG)
Miller SRH-333 (stick/tig supply)
Miller CP-250TS (spray-transfer only- still messing with it to make it happy on short-arc)

Next up:
Miller CP-300
22 Airco 300 MIG supplies (yep... twenty two of 'em)
a Lincoln somethingorother with digital controls

Here's where I've posted the first three:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...-phase-199832/

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...-phase-199832/

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...-phase-199832/
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  #2  
Old 11-10-2011, 07:37:16 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

All 3 of those links go to the same post, is that correct? I have a 3 phase carbon arc power supply which I think it is a re-branded Miller machine (stick), if this works on it that would be sweet. Honestly suck at electrical, I'll show this to a friend and see if he understands it better. Thanks!
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Old 11-15-2011, 10:49:31 AM
dkamp dkamp is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

Argh... you're right... must'a had copy-paste problems.

CP-200 MIG: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...-phase-199832/

SRH-333 Stick/TIG:http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...-phase-201310/

CP-250TS MIG: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...-phase-206509/

That should work better.

---------- Post added at 08:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:45 AM ----------

The basic concept of all of these, is that the welding transformer is based on a 3-phase core... having 3 sections, and built so that magnetic flow circulates through the core in a figure-8 pattern.

Wire the far left and far right cores so that they're operating opposite of eachother (criss-cross one). Wire the CENTER coil in EITHER orientation, but pass each leg through a motor-run capacitor of sufficient size to create 90 degrees of phase shift at full load current.

What this does, is force the core to function in it's original design-plan, and once the flux is spinning in a coherent figure-8, you'll get full functionality and output.
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Old 07-03-2013, 08:00:55 AM
Matco Matco is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

I know I'm responding to an old post... did you ever convert the Miller CP-300? Could you post your results?
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Old 07-06-2013, 12:51:30 AM
dkamp dkamp is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matco View Post
I know I'm responding to an old post... did you ever convert the Miller CP-300? Could you post your results?
Hi Matco-

I have not gotten to converting MY CP-300 to single YET, but I do have one waiting. I HAVE however, advised several others on converting the CP-300, and all have found success. The general agreement of all, is that 130uF was the 'happy' value for it, and that they weld extremely well on single-phase.

Keep watching- one of them SHOULD be posting his diagram and connection procedure soon... but for a hint... it's very similar to the CP-200, but the CP-300s I've seen so far have all been DELTA input machines, so the mod is substantially easier... eliminate the cross-connections of the delta, break out the primary leads for each transformer segment, and wire in the capacitors...

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Old 07-11-2013, 12:27:31 AM
Bob Phillips Bob Phillips is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

Back in the olden days and being around a excess of 3-phase motors and knowing a ole smart millwright/machinist, 3-phase can be made/generated from driving a 3-phase motor with a single phase, 22/240 volt, slave motor... I ran my first small machine shop, single phase wired, by this method... I drove a 5 HP 220/240 motor pulleyed to a small 1/4 horse 220/240 single phase motor... Using a drum switch, start the single phase motor... When the speed is up to approx. 1/2 or full speed of the driven 220/240- 3 phase motor, switch the juice off the single phase motor and direct it to the 3-phase motor through the drum switch... Presto, your 3-phase motor will now generate a phase from its 3rd leg... Simply use the 3 HOT legs of the 3-phase motor to run lathes, mills, welders, etc, etc, etc... You can run the driving belt off the pulley of 1/4 HP motor if desired or let it be driven by the 3-phase, 5 HP motor... Bob
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Old 12-30-2013, 04:49:06 PM
Adrielp Adrielp is offline
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Default Re: Rewiring Miller MP-30e for single phase power

I maybe able to get a Miller MP-30e for cheap and I am wondering if it can also be rewired to run on a single phase. I believe Mechanically, I have to skill to rewire it myself but I would need to some very good step by step instructions to do that. Either way, if its cheap enough to purchase, I will sell it but I would much rater keep it and avoid the entire barter process if possible. The manual can be found below with the wiring diagram contained within on pg 28. I would appreciate any help in achieving this, thanks.

http://www.millerwelds.com/om/o226e_mil.pdf
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Old 01-18-2014, 01:38:44 AM
dkamp dkamp is offline
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Default Re: Rewiring Miller MP-30e for single phase power

Hi Adriel-

Yeah, based on the diagram on page 28, looks like it'd work fine... it's a DELTA machine... note there's some jumpers that connect A to B, B to C, and C to A. You'll need to open up the case and look at the terminal strips... find and disconnect those jumpers, then set the voltage selection jumpers to 230v, and connect your incoming lines to coils A and C in reverse phase, then drive the center coil through about a 120uf motor-run cap in each leg. Look at the process for the CP-200 and SRH-333, then take the time to examine your machine, locate all the wires, etc.
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Old 01-23-2014, 09:48:30 AM
sandgink sandgink is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

Dave,

I have been following this thread and the one on practical Machinist for some time now. My employer has a Miller CP-252TS 3 Phase that they are replacing. I am waiting to see what they want for it. Our welding supplier told them the unit and wire feed together was worth $1300. My question is this. If I can get the price down to some where in the $400 range, can the 252 be converted successfully. I know you have been battling low range performance issues. Attached is the electrical diagram.

thanks

Jake
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  #10  
Old 01-25-2014, 08:36:41 PM
dkamp dkamp is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

Hi Jake!

The CP-250TS that I have, operates on single phase, but it doesn't like going into the lower range, because it was never designed for short-arc welding- it only likes spray mode.

Your CP-252TS is substantially newer than the CP250TS, and I suspect that it has been redesigned with additional inductance to allow it to settle down and do short-arc process.

Wiring wise- yes, it'll convert just fine. Looking at the diagram, aside from the adjustable slope inductor, it appears to be very similar to the CP-250 series, so my BET, is that it'll work just fine on single.

That being said, if you're patient and keeping your eyes open, you'll probably stumble upon a CP200 or CP300 for $100... and mebbie even get a used, but serviceable wire feeder for $50...
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Old 02-28-2014, 06:29:32 PM
aircrush aircrush is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

I just joined this site today & need help.I just bought a old Miller CP-2VS,200 amp mig.I do not have 3 phase service.The welder work's perfect on 3 phase but need to convert to single phase.I took it to Charles Rewind in Dover,Ohio,it is a very good shop but have done little to covert welder's to single phase.Thank's for any help,aircrush
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:44:42 PM
cgiron cgiron is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

Hi im new and have a question i found a srh303 it was made on 1978 i will like to convert to used on 230volts ,.single phase .thanks for looking .
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  #13  
Old 07-19-2014, 12:36:03 PM
dkamp dkamp is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

So I looked here:

http://www.millerwelds.com/service/l...t_name=SRH-303


There's six different SN ranges identified. What's your unit's serial number?

Last doc shown goes from JB531535 and higher, and doc date is '82.

Third one down is HH073745 through HK286453, dated '78.

I looked at both, and see no differences of any significance in either, in comparison to the SRH-333... so go for it... treat it just like a SRH-333, and melt some metal.
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Old 07-19-2014, 08:33:59 PM
cgiron cgiron is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

HH073769 miller.
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Old 07-20-2014, 10:14:30 AM
cgiron cgiron is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

Can i use 80 uf 440 v cap thanks..
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Old 07-20-2014, 10:28:48 PM
dkamp dkamp is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

That'll get you in the ballpark. Reason for 450v, is because the center coil's phase shift will cause higher voltages to appear across the capacitor terminals under some conditions. You may never have an issue at 440v, and they may go bad eventually... higher voltage is better. I'm sure they'll work for at least long enough for a good test, and probably longer.
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Old 09-04-2014, 12:25:59 PM
WldrRprMan WldrRprMan is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

Quote:
Originally Posted by dkamp View Post
Hey Everybody-

If you're interested in getting a good welder, but you're on a low budget, used industrial-type 3-phase welders can be found for incredibly cheap prices.

Many people say that three-phase machines cannot be made to perform properly on single-phase power, but Peter Haas and I have found a technique that proves otherwise. I've been working with Millers, but I believe others will work just fine using similar technique.

I've documented the technique and method (no withheld secrets anywhere) and posted them freely, so check it out, and give them a try. If you run into difficulty, or would like to discuss it further, shoot me an Email, and I'll reply, or give you a call.

So far, I've done:

Miller CP-200 (MIG)
Miller SRH-333 (stick/tig supply)
Miller CP-250TS (spray-transfer only- still messing with it to make it happy on short-arc)

Next up:
Miller CP-300
22 Airco 300 MIG supplies (yep... twenty two of 'em)
a Lincoln somethingorother with digital controls

Here's where I've posted the first three:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...-phase-199832/

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...-phase-199832/

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...-phase-199832/
I see you have converted some older, simpler 3 phase welders to single phase power. Have you converted any others like the Lincoln Ideal Arc CV400 or the Miller Goldstar 302 to single phase. These 2 examples use synchronization windings on the transformer to be used in SCR firing. I have been researching converters using the 3 phase motor technique and also solid state converters for this purpose. However I am a little hesitant to use these as they might not be agreeable to the SCR firing circuitry.
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Old 09-07-2014, 10:15:48 PM
dkamp dkamp is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

Hi!

I've helped about half-a-dozen guys convert machines that use SCRs rather than ordinary diodes.

The SCR circuits I've encountered come in basically TWO flavors:

First, is where three SCRs are used in lieu of standard diodes in the output bridge, and the purpose is to eliminate the need for a high-current output contactor.

Second, is where SCRs are used to MODULATE the output of the machine based on control setpoint... and what they're doing, is controlling the output by changing the trigger time amidst the AC waveform... basically, same as an SCR or TRIAC based lamp dimmer.

The CP200 and CP300 originally came with a basic diode bridge output, controlled by a high-current contactor. After many years of operation, the contactors would start to fail, in which case, most guys would probably clean the contacts and try to run them for a few more years, or they'd get the contact stack replaced and continue on. At SOME point in time, Miller (and perhaps others) came out with a mod-kit consisting of a control board and SCRs, associated wiring, and obviously, instructions... to convert the CP-series to the FIRST type of operation. It appears that not long after, Miller simply fitted ALL of the CP-series with SCR switching, and nix'd the contactor completely. I've helped several guys convert these, and it works flawlessly.

I've had plenty of inquiries on the Ideal Arc CV's, and two gents have reported that the conversion worked... however, I have not seen posts illustrating their connections, capacitor values, or performance notes, so I don't have any sort of demonstrative data.

When faced with the phasing and sync windings, I surmised that the sync windings' signals would be relatively accurate regardless of any phase distortion that occurs, and since the relative sync reflects what that winding is actually doing, that the reference for SCR firing would still be valid and appropriate. End result, is that, all things being in the ballpark, it'd work, and the reports I got, suggested such. I haven't, however, had opportunity to obtain one and try it for myself, lest I would've started a thread on it, and posted my results.

I suspect that eventually, one would come across something of new-enough control technology, that the microprocessor(s) would get all fussy and just say 'no'... at which point, it couldn't be adequately utilized. If it does happen that way, it wouldn't surprise me, but it also wouldn't cause me any heartache- my original intent, was to put OLD machines back to work. If this technique happens to work on the new-era machines, that's fine too.
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Old 09-28-2017, 10:28:05 PM
beltrami beltrami is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

Quote:
Originally Posted by WldrRprMan View Post
I see you have converted some older, simpler 3 phase welders to single phase power. Have you converted any others like the Lincoln Ideal Arc CV400 or the Miller Goldstar 302 to single phase. These 2 examples use synchronization windings on the transformer to be used in SCR firing. I have been researching converters using the 3 phase motor technique and also solid state converters for this purpose. However I am a little hesitant to use these as they might not be agreeable to the SCR firing circuitry.
I got a cp200 hh057572 Miller, the Dave Kamp 3 phase to single phase, looks like a great conversion, the trouble is that my welder has less terminals on the board, this welder does not have the 460 volt winding, it has the 208 230 and a 208 volt winding, so hopefully this unit can be converted to single phase, any help would be much appreciated. Thank you in advance.

---------- Post added at 09:28:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:10:53 PM ----------

I recently purchased a cp-200 miller matic welder, the condition (look) of this welder is in great condition, trouble is I was unaware of the 3 phase needed to operate this welder, I looked at the Kamp Haas conversion, so I thought great I may be able to use this machine, the trouble I am having is that this is a 208 230 volt system, the conversion is for a system with 460 volt coil.
So what I am asking, is there a conversion that I can do to switch this machine over to single phase ?
Model number HH057572 stock number 901 850
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  #20  
Old 11-10-2017, 12:11:39 AM
dkamp dkamp is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

The 208/230v only welder will NOT convert to single-phase like the 230/460. The transformer primary is entirely different.

I don't have one of these to experiment on, so I have nothing to offer there... Some guys have employed other methods, but I have seen no postings of what they've done, nor illustrated any results.
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