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Running Surplus 3-Phase Welders on Single-Phase Power


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  #21  
Old 03-02-2014, 12:20:20 PM
dkamp dkamp is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

Quote:
Originally Posted by aircrush View Post
It is a old welder & that is the model number.Here is the serial number.K208010I have pic's but do not know how to post them.Thank's
"Old" is a rather nebulous descriptor. If it's a wire-feed constant-voltage supply, it's certainly not OLD. The earliest wire-feed systems are still very recent with respect to documentation records. Miller's site has documentation on machines well into the '40's, and I'm SURE it's not that old.

I would suspect that it's somewhere in the vintage of '70's and '80's. The CP-200, CP-250TS, and SRH-333 are all from the late '60's.

Miller has done an excellent job of getting documentation online for download. Occasionally, there are some documents, typically on very old, or low-production models, that have not been scanned and included in their website. When that occurs, I've found that sending an Email to Miller, with the model and serial number, resulted in a return email shortly after, with the appropriate document attached in the email. This is one of the several reasons why I'm a fan of Miller... but I do own some Lincolns, and a Hobart, and a Forney, and some others...
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  #22  
Old 04-29-2014, 01:05:31 PM
tprothma tprothma is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

Dave is awesome. I did a CP200 and he was very helpful. It's my main welder. I picked up a second one and have the parts for it but not the time yet.
Tim
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  #23  
Old 05-02-2014, 11:04:00 AM
DLeach DLeach is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

They have had capacitor 3 phase converters for years. These are also known as widow makers. I prefer rotary converters. Much safer.

Dave
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  #24  
Old 05-02-2014, 11:37:20 AM
dkamp dkamp is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

Quote:
Originally Posted by DLeach View Post
They have had capacitor 3 phase converters for years. These are also known as widow makers. I prefer rotary converters. Much safer.

Dave
I'm not seeing a relevance to your reference. A capacitor-based converter is called a 'static phase converter'. Aside from the presence of two capacitors, it is in no way related to the method for running a three-phase welding transformer as described above. It's like comparing driving a watermelon to work, to eating a wet pair of golf shoes.

Static converters provide enough phase shift to start a three-phase motor, but are generally only able to allow a motor to run at 2/3rds of it's rated power. Statics are widely used for small motor applications, and the principle by which it operates is also employed in basically every reversible single-phase induction motor with a run capacitor. They're also used in agricultural applications well over 5hp, where three phase motors on grain dryers must be run from a single-phase source. This is because Industrial 3-phase motors in the 15hp class are much less expensive than a single-phase 10hp motor, and many farms have 3-phase... so SPCs and smaller blower rotors were put on to make up the difference.

Static phase converters are best improved by adding of an idler motor, hence, a three-phase converter. They can bring up the output capacity to ALMOST full motor output, however, the capacitive balance is a moving target, so they'll never be spot-on.

I've never heard anyone do it, but whoever refers to a static as a 'widow maker', or considers a rotary converter with same internal concept to be somehow safer, apparently has no idea how either function.

The Haas-Kamp conversion does none of the above. It does, however, fit inside most industrial welder cases, so no external gadget is required, no additional line cord, no extra conductor... just an ordinary range cord plugged into a 240v socket in the wall.

Did I mention that it's quiet?
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  #25  
Old 07-18-2014, 11:44:42 PM
cgiron cgiron is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

Hi im new and have a question i found a srh303 it was made on 1978 i will like to convert to used on 230volts ,.single phase .thanks for looking .
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  #26  
Old 07-19-2014, 12:36:03 PM
dkamp dkamp is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

So I looked here:

http://www.millerwelds.com/service/l...t_name=SRH-303


There's six different SN ranges identified. What's your unit's serial number?

Last doc shown goes from JB531535 and higher, and doc date is '82.

Third one down is HH073745 through HK286453, dated '78.

I looked at both, and see no differences of any significance in either, in comparison to the SRH-333... so go for it... treat it just like a SRH-333, and melt some metal.
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  #27  
Old 07-19-2014, 08:33:59 PM
cgiron cgiron is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

HH073769 miller.
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  #28  
Old 07-20-2014, 10:14:30 AM
cgiron cgiron is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

Can i use 80 uf 440 v cap thanks..
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  #29  
Old 07-20-2014, 10:28:48 PM
dkamp dkamp is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

That'll get you in the ballpark. Reason for 450v, is because the center coil's phase shift will cause higher voltages to appear across the capacitor terminals under some conditions. You may never have an issue at 440v, and they may go bad eventually... higher voltage is better. I'm sure they'll work for at least long enough for a good test, and probably longer.
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  #30  
Old 07-23-2014, 10:30:37 PM
cgiron cgiron is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

Where can i get those caps .thanks for youre help..
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  #31  
Old 07-24-2014, 01:41:59 PM
dkamp dkamp is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electri...ors/?page_no=5

This is just the last page... they're on all pages, but you want the larger capacity.

These 88uf 1200v caps are absolute tanks- if you've got a machine that needs that much, these do the trick nicely.
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  #32  
Old 08-07-2014, 09:16:36 PM
cgiron cgiron is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

Hi DKAMP and what kind of uf recistor can i used on 88uf-1200v ?
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  #33  
Old 08-08-2014, 12:58:13 AM
dkamp dkamp is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

Same as one would use on something smaller... a 15K, 5w wirewound is a good choice for a 240v single-phase scenario... the highest charge voltage one would see, is generally going to be below 450v, and at 15k, it's not flowing enough to burn itself out anytime soon. It'll take a while to bleed an 88uf capacitor, but not too long.

Bleeder resistors are a 'reasonable balance' between assuring that they won't fail from overheat, and rapid discharge. There's plenty of purists and opinions, some will say that for propriety, one should select the resistor to discharge your capacitors to below 40v within X seconds... one can simply use Ohm's Law to make that calculation, and assume 450v as the start voltage, then calculate bleed current and capacitor time constant, but you'll end up with a big pile of mathematics and likely just-enough-resistor to survive for a while. My preference (and this is personal preference from field experience) is that if you attempt to bleed off the caps too fast, you'll wind up with a resistor that's burned open, hence, a much worse danger than if you used a higher resistance, less bleed current, and a bit longer time-to-safe... because an under-loaded resistor will be much more reliable. If the discharge time is insufficient, put a few more 15k/5w resistors in same place... preferably, right across the terminals of the capacitor, so that if one of the leads becomes disconnected, the capacitor will STILL discharge safely.
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  #34  
Old 08-09-2014, 10:46:50 PM
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

Thanks for all you re help on my welder .
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  #35  
Old 08-20-2014, 10:41:54 PM
dkamp dkamp is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

You're very welcome. Did you get it running okay? If so, what capacitance value did it like the best?
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  #36  
Old 09-04-2014, 12:25:59 PM
WldrRprMan WldrRprMan is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

Quote:
Originally Posted by dkamp View Post
Hey Everybody-

If you're interested in getting a good welder, but you're on a low budget, used industrial-type 3-phase welders can be found for incredibly cheap prices.

Many people say that three-phase machines cannot be made to perform properly on single-phase power, but Peter Haas and I have found a technique that proves otherwise. I've been working with Millers, but I believe others will work just fine using similar technique.

I've documented the technique and method (no withheld secrets anywhere) and posted them freely, so check it out, and give them a try. If you run into difficulty, or would like to discuss it further, shoot me an Email, and I'll reply, or give you a call.

So far, I've done:

Miller CP-200 (MIG)
Miller SRH-333 (stick/tig supply)
Miller CP-250TS (spray-transfer only- still messing with it to make it happy on short-arc)

Next up:
Miller CP-300
22 Airco 300 MIG supplies (yep... twenty two of 'em)
a Lincoln somethingorother with digital controls

Here's where I've posted the first three:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...-phase-199832/

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...-phase-199832/

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...-phase-199832/
I see you have converted some older, simpler 3 phase welders to single phase power. Have you converted any others like the Lincoln Ideal Arc CV400 or the Miller Goldstar 302 to single phase. These 2 examples use synchronization windings on the transformer to be used in SCR firing. I have been researching converters using the 3 phase motor technique and also solid state converters for this purpose. However I am a little hesitant to use these as they might not be agreeable to the SCR firing circuitry.
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  #37  
Old 09-07-2014, 10:15:48 PM
dkamp dkamp is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

Hi!

I've helped about half-a-dozen guys convert machines that use SCRs rather than ordinary diodes.

The SCR circuits I've encountered come in basically TWO flavors:

First, is where three SCRs are used in lieu of standard diodes in the output bridge, and the purpose is to eliminate the need for a high-current output contactor.

Second, is where SCRs are used to MODULATE the output of the machine based on control setpoint... and what they're doing, is controlling the output by changing the trigger time amidst the AC waveform... basically, same as an SCR or TRIAC based lamp dimmer.

The CP200 and CP300 originally came with a basic diode bridge output, controlled by a high-current contactor. After many years of operation, the contactors would start to fail, in which case, most guys would probably clean the contacts and try to run them for a few more years, or they'd get the contact stack replaced and continue on. At SOME point in time, Miller (and perhaps others) came out with a mod-kit consisting of a control board and SCRs, associated wiring, and obviously, instructions... to convert the CP-series to the FIRST type of operation. It appears that not long after, Miller simply fitted ALL of the CP-series with SCR switching, and nix'd the contactor completely. I've helped several guys convert these, and it works flawlessly.

I've had plenty of inquiries on the Ideal Arc CV's, and two gents have reported that the conversion worked... however, I have not seen posts illustrating their connections, capacitor values, or performance notes, so I don't have any sort of demonstrative data.

When faced with the phasing and sync windings, I surmised that the sync windings' signals would be relatively accurate regardless of any phase distortion that occurs, and since the relative sync reflects what that winding is actually doing, that the reference for SCR firing would still be valid and appropriate. End result, is that, all things being in the ballpark, it'd work, and the reports I got, suggested such. I haven't, however, had opportunity to obtain one and try it for myself, lest I would've started a thread on it, and posted my results.

I suspect that eventually, one would come across something of new-enough control technology, that the microprocessor(s) would get all fussy and just say 'no'... at which point, it couldn't be adequately utilized. If it does happen that way, it wouldn't surprise me, but it also wouldn't cause me any heartache- my original intent, was to put OLD machines back to work. If this technique happens to work on the new-era machines, that's fine too.
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  #38  
Old 01-25-2016, 04:57:52 PM
rocco1 rocco1 is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

I recently came into a Lincoln cv300 ideal arc with ln742 wire feeder, the only drawback is that it is a three phase welder and I only have 240 volt system. I seen that you have had luck in converting these and was wondering if you could help me out?
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  #39  
Old 01-26-2016, 09:39:52 PM
dkamp dkamp is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

I got your private message, and replied, including a link to Lincoln's support section- they have an excellent library online of their machines' owner's manuals, and like Miller, they've identified the series breaks for each model. Once you've determined which manual is correct for your machine, I'll look at the diagram and identify the connections. The CV300 appears to be a delta-input machine, with all connections brought to a connecting panel. That means it shouldn't be difficult to hook up.
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  #40  
Old 03-28-2016, 01:07:23 AM
rocco1 rocco1 is offline
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Default Re: Running surplus 3-phase welders on single-phase power

japs6@yahoo.comClick image for larger version

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ID:	250106 these are some of the pics I have not been able to get to the machine until now the machine was buried behind more equipment , I now have a 200 amp service and can power this machine if I can get it to run on 240 volts, thank you for your help
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