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Large frequency meter find Need help


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Old 09-03-2019, 04:12:14 PM
Frank DeWitt Frank DeWitt is offline
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Default Large frequency meter find Need help

I just received this large vibrating reed frequency meter. (7 in dia. at the glass. Aside from needing a lot of work to get down to the brass, it has two problems. The "Card" is yellowed and broken. Are there people who specialize in reproducing these? If not, it looks like my choices are
1. Leave it alone
2. Scan it, and Photoshop the scan to have a white background.
3. Other.
The second issue is there is a series resistor (Wire wound on a wood spool) that is open. I need to figure out the value of that resistor. If anyone has one of these, would you share the DC resistance of the entire meter?



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Old 09-03-2019, 04:45:55 PM
kwfiggatt kwfiggatt is offline
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Default Re: Large frequency meter find Need help

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Originally Posted by Frank DeWitt View Post
The second issue is there is a series resistor (Wire wound on a wood spool) that is open. I need to figure out the value of that resistor. If anyone has one of these, would you share the DC resistance of the entire meter?
I found an approximate value for a broken wire wound resistor on my Cub Cadet voltage regulator by de-soldering the resistor from the circuit, finding the break and soldering the two broken ends together. Then you can read the resistance with an ohm meter. I then went and bought the closest power resistor that Radio Shack had and it's worked fine since then...

Cool meter, btw!

Kevin
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Old 09-03-2019, 11:48:29 PM
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Default Re: Large frequency meter find Need help

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Old 09-04-2019, 06:03:21 AM
georgineer georgineer is offline
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Default Re: Large frequency meter find Need help

My approach is to scan the original meter dial (I have yet to meet one that cannot be removed) and clean it up with suitable software, such as Gimp which is a bit like Photoshop but available free of charge.

Then I print the dial out on good quality white paper which shouldn't yellow with age, then stick it on the original dial using water soluble glue and avoiding the original printing as much as possible.

I prefer to use a slightly cream or pale yellowy background to leave an impression of age - plain white can be a bit stark.

Incidentally, there is a useful looking program available to make up meter dials, but I don't think it covers this sort of frequency meter: http://tonnesoftware.com/meter.html

George
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Old 09-04-2019, 08:43:22 AM
Frank DeWitt Frank DeWitt is offline
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Default Re: Large frequency meter find Need help

NICE. Mine is the same. Outer case, terminals, ETC. all the same, but covered with dirt and a bad gray paint job. A winter project.
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Old 09-04-2019, 10:48:30 AM
georgineer georgineer is offline
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Default Re: Large frequency meter find Need help

Further to my earlier post, I have a very similar meter labelled "Hartmann-Kempf's Frequency Meter" made by Hartmann & Braun of Frankfurt. It is marked 100 Volts, and covers the range 30-55 Hz, which makes sense for a European meter.

I've taken the cover off and measured resistances: the bobbin measures 2.17 k and the vibrator coil 3.08 k. You should be able to compare these with your own and work out suitable proportions. There is also an external 15.7 k resistor which my father added to run it safely off the UK 230 volt supply.

This is the first time I've taken the cover off, and I discovered that the card face was originally stuck to a metal plate which I think is of zinc, presumably for cheapness and non-magnetic properties. The zinc has corroded, dropping copious quantities of white dust into the bottom of the case and leaving the card with curled edges and hanging on by its fingernails. Another job for the winter! Fortunately the card itself is in serviceable condition.

I can't imagine the value of the bobbin resistance is very critical. If it is reduced, the reeds will vibrate more vigorously, the coil will get warmer, and the energy consumption will go up. If resistance is increased the opposite will happen, until eventually the vibration will be too small to be useful.

A quick calculation suggests that total power consumption is about 2 watts. If your historical conscience will let you do it, a modern 2 watt resistor bypassing the dead bobbin will serve your purpose admirably with heat capacity to spare, and you can leave the bobbin in place for future generations to find.

George
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Old 09-04-2019, 11:11:30 AM
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Default Re: Large frequency meter find Need help

Don't overlook that there may be an inductive effect to a wound coil resistor that under A.C. may further reduce the current flow.
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Old 09-04-2019, 04:32:22 PM
georgineer georgineer is offline
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Default Re: Large frequency meter find Need help

Good point, Harry, and one I didn't take into consideration in my quick-and-dirty calculation because reactive currents don't make things hot.

George
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Old 09-05-2019, 01:57:41 AM
Vanman Vanman is offline
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Default Re: Large frequency meter find Need help

On the other hand, being wound on a wooden "core", and being only 60 cycles, I wouldn't expect too much inductive reactance...

Winding it in a coil on a piece of wood was probably more a matter of structural convenience.
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Old 09-06-2019, 11:54:24 AM
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Default Re: Large frequency meter find Need help

I don't see the issue with the original face. It is only original once, and it shows age and wear as expected for an older paper component.
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Old 09-10-2019, 08:49:41 AM
Frank DeWitt Frank DeWitt is offline
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Default Re: Large frequency meter find Need help

I tested the meter. It works with about 60 volts to the coil at .005 amps. I just need a in line resistor and it will be working.
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Old 10-06-2019, 04:35:38 PM
Frank DeWitt Frank DeWitt is offline
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Photo Re: Large frequency meter find Need help

The meter after two rounds of paint stripping It had thick gray house paint over the factory black.


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Old 10-06-2019, 10:09:17 PM
diggin4s diggin4s is offline
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Default Re: Large frequency meter find Need help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank DeWitt View Post
I just received this large vibrating reed frequency meter. (7 in dia. at the glass. Aside from needing a lot of work to get down to the brass, it has two problems. The
The second issue is there is a series resistor (Wire wound on a wood spool) that is open. I need to figure out the value of that resistor. If anyone has one of these, would you share the DC resistance of the entire meter?


Thanks
The coil measures 10K & overall terminal input resistance is approx 78K ohm
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Old 10-07-2019, 09:20:46 AM
Frank DeWitt Frank DeWitt is offline
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Default Re: Large frequency meter find Need help

Quote:
Originally Posted by diggin4s View Post
The coil measures 10K & overall terminal input resistance is approx 78K ohm
Thank you very much. Your meter is in great condition. I think mine will end up bare brass.
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Old 10-07-2019, 02:30:42 PM
Vanman Vanman is offline
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Default Re: Large frequency meter find Need help

Interesting. Mine is bare brass. I always *assumed* that was original, but maybe someone stripped the paint off of it.

Keith
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Old 10-07-2019, 03:23:29 PM
Frank DeWitt Frank DeWitt is offline
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Default Re: Large frequency meter find Need help

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Interesting. Mine is bare brass. I always *assumed* that was original, but maybe someone stripped the paint off of it.

Keith
Above there are three that were black. I have a number of old school slave clocks that are painted brass, also a couple of Kohler radiators that are painted or some other finish over brass. apparently brass was a easy metal to work and form into shape but not valued for it's finish. I think I am going to like the brass.
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Old 10-07-2019, 03:35:49 PM
diggin4s diggin4s is offline
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Default Re: Large frequency meter find Need help

I never imagined the case was brass, being a panel meter the input terminals are on back, some versions depending on location may require brass, but a 60hz vibrating coil likely had more issues with mechanical harmonics, corrosion than electrical interference. The EPHF.ca museum has a 1913 Thomson Houston watt hour meter that could have been ordered with brass or black frame & other details depending on how the "look" required. Fortunately the electric industry benefited/started by the accidental discovery of current induction & magnetism, 99% of the industry requires a conductor passing through a magnetic field to begin there day.
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Old 10-07-2019, 04:14:50 PM
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Default Re: Large frequency meter find Need help

Edmonton Power Historical Foundation

Their web site deserves a good look...

https://www.ephf.ca/

https://www.ephf.ca/view_gallery.asp?gid=9

Click to enlarge photos. There are videos too.
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Old 10-07-2019, 08:19:52 PM
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Default Re: Large frequency meter find Need help

Wartime eras likely left brass only for as required products, metal drives were the norm during war efforts
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Old 10-10-2019, 03:39:25 PM
Frank DeWitt Frank DeWitt is offline
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Default Re: Large frequency meter find Need help

My series resistor is open but the Exciter coil is not. The meter works with 60 volts across the coil
The coil is 89K That is from two different digital meters one a Fluke. A old Triplett 310 analog meter shows 50K

diggin4s, When you say the coil, are you referring to the wood bobbin series resistor? Your meter looks exactly like mine. Your exciting coil would be 68K That seems about right.

I am going to start with 100 K and keep subtracting 10 K until it works as it should.
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